Christopher Tappin
Discussion
fluffnik said:
We should not be deporting any citizens to the USA ever.
Precisely this. It would be great if this country had some f
king loyalty to its citizens, like the govt. were looking out for you in good times and bad. Maybe too utopian for the UK.
Neither the French, Germans or Russians extradite their own citizens but we have the SPECIAL relationship...you know what f
k that. All we seem to do lately is end up in stupid foreign wars and what do we get that others don't in return ? What if someone British comes back over from the USA after comitting some serious crime and it is obvious they did it?
I have read most parts of the Home Offices review into extradition law. They pretty much discounted trying the person in the UK (forum I think its called). They also said that the balance between the evidence we need to bring someone over from the USA is similar to what the USA needs to take someone over. I think there is the assumption that the US legal system is fairly decent - that might be the issue!
I have read most parts of the Home Offices review into extradition law. They pretty much discounted trying the person in the UK (forum I think its called). They also said that the balance between the evidence we need to bring someone over from the USA is similar to what the USA needs to take someone over. I think there is the assumption that the US legal system is fairly decent - that might be the issue!
Mojooo said:
Have you read the Court od Appeal judgement? It paints quite a different picture. Though it didn't mention his job was as an international freight person.
http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2011/22....
An interesting read. Clearly, Tappin was not an innocent caught up in some fanciful entrapment. However, the objections to his extradition are not without merit. If our relationship with the USA is as special as we keep being told, they should entrust the case to the UK courts.http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2011/22....
El Guapo said:
An interesting read. Clearly, Tappin was not an innocent caught up in some fanciful entrapment. However, the objections to his extradition are not without merit. If our relationship with the USA is as special as we keep being told, they should entrust the case to the UK courts.
Will they foot the bill?Why should British people have to wait longer in an already slow system by having American cases added to it?
It seems the ECHR are not interested in his case.
They are however interested in an Australian offended by being called "sport"
ECHR are a complete and utter joke. I wonder if Tappin was a different colour or had not worked a day in his life or claimed to be a hippy/protester he would still be with his wife in the UK as we speak.
They are however interested in an Australian offended by being called "sport"
ECHR are a complete and utter joke. I wonder if Tappin was a different colour or had not worked a day in his life or claimed to be a hippy/protester he would still be with his wife in the UK as we speak.
Silvs said:
It seems the ECHR are not interested in his case.
They are however interested in an Australian offended by being called "sport"
Crazy.They are however interested in an Australian offended by being called "sport"
I have mixed feelings about this case. I think there are huge questions to be asked about extradition to the US and how humane it is for someone to be imprisoned thousands of miles away from their home and loved ones even before their trial. With all the technology we have now surely there is some way of him being allowed to stay in the UK, doing all the pre-trial stuff over Skype or something similar and then flying to the States for the actual trial whenever that is. In the meantime he could be held in a UK prison (perhaps at the US's expense) or put under house arrest and electronically tagged for example.
The other thing that strikes me about this case is that he has appeared on TV and spoken very eloquently and movingly about his plight. I suspect most of us have watched this elderly man with his, understandably, distraught wife and we have thought that someone who seems so normal and is getting on in years can't be guilty of a crime like this. If he was in his forties and hurled abuse at the media every time they tried to film him I suspect we might feel differently about him.
The other thing that strikes me about this case is that he has appeared on TV and spoken very eloquently and movingly about his plight. I suspect most of us have watched this elderly man with his, understandably, distraught wife and we have thought that someone who seems so normal and is getting on in years can't be guilty of a crime like this. If he was in his forties and hurled abuse at the media every time they tried to film him I suspect we might feel differently about him.
Having read the court ruling on this there does seem to be evidence to involve Mr Tappin in this offence.
The problem I have with this is that he may well wait 2 years for a court hearing and have to endure that time period in a hell hole. Why can he not be extradited and tried within a few weeks and also in this case why can he not be remanded in an open prison - I know they are for US Citizens only (YAWN).
The problem I have with this is that he may well wait 2 years for a court hearing and have to endure that time period in a hell hole. Why can he not be extradited and tried within a few weeks and also in this case why can he not be remanded in an open prison - I know they are for US Citizens only (YAWN).
Mojooo said:
What if someone British comes back over from the USA after comitting some serious crime and it is obvious they did it?
I have read most parts of the Home Offices review into extradition law. They pretty much discounted trying the person in the UK (forum I think its called). They also said that the balance between the evidence we need to bring someone over from the USA is similar to what the USA needs to take someone over. I think there is the assumption that the US legal system is fairly decent - that might be the issue!
My issue with it is that the UK seems to extradite people to the US for "crimes" committed in the UK, without the need to ever touch US soil. I have read most parts of the Home Offices review into extradition law. They pretty much discounted trying the person in the UK (forum I think its called). They also said that the balance between the evidence we need to bring someone over from the USA is similar to what the USA needs to take someone over. I think there is the assumption that the US legal system is fairly decent - that might be the issue!
If a UK citizen stabs someone in the states, jumps on a plane and comes home then I have no problem with extraditing them to face justice in the US.
For copyright infringements or online fraud I don't see why a prosecution couldn't be brought in a UK court, as this is afterall where the crime tool place. These things are illegal here too.
Shipping batteries to Holland though? What on earth has that got to do with the US? Unless there's something pretty fundamental I've missed about this case then it's simply stupid.
But then that's what happens in stupid, tin pot little countries with delusions of reviving their former grandeur by sucking up to the US. Tony Blair might have got himself a slice of grandeur on the lecture circuit, and Cameron might be reluctant to compromise his own, but the actual protection of citizens offered by a proper functioning sovereign state is a distant second.
As for the notion of the ECHR intervening. As many have said already, they're not there to protect the rights of humans, that's just a misleading title. It exists to promote the socialist, federalist nonsense that is the fetish of our rulers. It seems like even the fringe goal of standing up to US hegemony is out now. Unless they think that this sort of thing will stir up anti US feeling in the UK and serve their ends some more?
tubbystu said:
AJS- said:
Shipping batteries to Holland though? What on earth has that got to do with the US? Unless there's something pretty fundamental I've missed about this case then it's simply stupid.
A'hem. The batteries were being shipped FROM the US. 
He was entrapped (illegal in the UK but in fairly common use in the US) by US government agents, using falsified documents. If the UK was a functioning state it would reject the extradition out of hand as he is not accused of any crime in the UK, or even anything that is illegal in the UK.
Hilts said:
fluffnik said:
We should not be deporting any citizens to the USA ever.
Precisely this. It would be great if this country had some f
king loyalty to its citizens, like the govt. were looking out for you in good times and bad. Maybe too utopian for the UK.
Hilts said:
Neither the French, Germans or Russians extradite their own citizens but we have the SPECIAL relationship...you know what fk that.
The French, and maybe the others, go even further and if you commit a crime against a French citizen anywhere in the world then it can be prosecuted in France - if they can get the accused back there.k that. AJS- said:
Yes, but it hardly sounds like he was passing them over to a strange Iranian man in a dark car park when they were meant for use in milk flats. If I read it right be was arranging for them to be shipped to a port in Holland and passed on to the customer.
He was entrapped (illegal in the UK but in fairly common use in the US) by US government agents, using falsified documents. If the UK was a functioning state it would reject the extradition out of hand as he is not accused of any crime in the UK, or even anything that is illegal in the UK.
It most certainly is illegal in the UK: http://www.bis.gov.uk/policies/export-control-orga...He was entrapped (illegal in the UK but in fairly common use in the US) by US government agents, using falsified documents. If the UK was a functioning state it would reject the extradition out of hand as he is not accused of any crime in the UK, or even anything that is illegal in the UK.
Stop getting your knickers in a twist - let's see the evidence, but on the balance of probabilities, this guy knew EXACTLY what he was doing. And, having been involved in exporting all his life, he will have fully understood the risks.
Edited by Deva Link on Saturday 25th February 11:18
AJS- said:
Yes, but it hardly sounds like he was passing them over to a strange Iranian man in a dark car park when they were meant for use in milk flats. If I read it right be was arranging for them to be shipped to a port in Holland and passed on to the customer.
Indeed, that is how I've read it. It is the (attempted ?) export the US are doing him for. AJS- said:
He was entrapped (illegal in the UK but in fairly common use in the US) by US government agents, using falsified documents.
But there must be a reason the US agencies contacted a UK freight agent about shipping a product that had known export restrictions. His name must have appeared on their radar somehow...........AJS- said:
If the UK was a functioning state it would reject the extradition out of hand as he is not accused of any crime in the UK, or even anything that is illegal in the UK.
The post 9/11 treaty relates to terrorism and is plainly not being used as hoped. 10 years on it clearly needs redefining. If it was either of the Abu's would we be quite so worried ? It should at least allow/require for the evidence to be tested in a UK court as part of the extradition process.
What gets me is that innocent or not he will be locked up for the duration and until the trial ends. He's still INNOCENT until proven guilty but locked up in gaol nonetheless. What's that all about? Especially as he has gone willingly??
He should be put up in a Motel or somesuch at cost to the US gov until he's found guilty/freed.
And not gaolled before.
He should be put up in a Motel or somesuch at cost to the US gov until he's found guilty/freed.
And not gaolled before.
Oilchange said:
What gets me is that innocent or not he will be locked up for the duration and until the trial ends.
Really? The BBC expect him to be out next week."He will now be kept in custody over the weekend until his first court appearance on Monday morning and is not expected to be granted bail until Thursday or Friday."
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