Libya- 'rebels' show their gratitude

Libya- 'rebels' show their gratitude

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Discussion

Mermaid

21,492 posts

170 months

Thursday 24th January 2013
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Bill said:
Caulkhead said:
You can offer an islamic country freedom from a repressive dictator and the opportunity for democracy but don't hold your breath for them having a clue what to do with it.
Hmmm. You can certainly be sure a small bunch of extremists will try to fk things up, but I'm not sure we should be writing off the entire country.
Agreed. But would you invest in Libya/Egypt/Iraq/Afghanistan right now?

SmoothCriminal

5,041 posts

198 months

Thursday 24th January 2013
quotequote all
Yeah let's arm the Syrians aswell.

fkwit government haven't got a clue.

Bill

52,407 posts

254 months

Thursday 24th January 2013
quotequote all
LostBMW said:
It's already so 'out there' and obvious I should hardly need to, surely?
It's not really insight is it?

Bill

52,407 posts

254 months

Thursday 24th January 2013
quotequote all
Mermaid said:
Agreed. But would you invest in Libya/Egypt/Iraq/Afghanistan right now?
I can't claim to be an expert, but it wouldn't appear to be the wisest idea.

LostBMW

12,955 posts

175 months

Thursday 24th January 2013
quotequote all
Bill said:
LostBMW said:
It's already so 'out there' and obvious I should hardly need to, surely?
It's not really insight is it?
Well you don't seem to have any into the mind set, religious background/viewpoint/aims, distrust/hatred of 'the crusaders', etc. etc. of the significant (minority maybe) body of activists who have the determination, voice, position and ruthlessness to put their goals into effect and push the country towards the way they want it do you.

Or maybe you're just ignoring the evidence of how they want to (and probably will) take the country through egalitarianism or political correctness.

Bill

52,407 posts

254 months

Thursday 24th January 2013
quotequote all
LostBMW said:
Well you don't seem to have any into the mind set, religious background/viewpoint/aims, distrust/hatred of 'the crusaders', etc. etc. of the significant (minority maybe) body of activists who have the determination, voice, position and ruthlessness to put their goals into effect and push the country towards the way they want it do you.

Or maybe you're just ignoring the evidence of how they want to (and probably will) take the country through egalitarianism or political correctness.
Really?

Bill said:
Hmmm. You can certainly be sure a small bunch of extremists will try to fk things up, but I'm not sure we should be writing off the entire country.
I've been there, met a few Libyans, and they didn't seem particularly keen on Ghadaffi (or any politician for that matter) but were keen on the UK and US.

As I say, not worth writing them off, IMO.

MX7

7,902 posts

173 months

Thursday 24th January 2013
quotequote all
It's quite funny that a certain section here dismiss out of hand our government's intelligence when the spotlight is on something like Iran, yet rub their hands with glee in the belief that it would be impossible that exactly the same source could have some misinformation when something like this arises.

Let's hope that a few get killed though, otherwise we'd miss out on all those fantastic "I told you so" posts.


It'll take a while for Libya to settle, and I don't think that many expected otherwise.

LostBMW

12,955 posts

175 months

Thursday 24th January 2013
quotequote all
Bill said:
LostBMW said:
Well you don't seem to have any into the mind set, religious background/viewpoint/aims, distrust/hatred of 'the crusaders', etc. etc. of the significant (minority maybe) body of activists who have the determination, voice, position and ruthlessness to put their goals into effect and push the country towards the way they want it do you.

Or maybe you're just ignoring the evidence of how they want to (and probably will) take the country through egalitarianism or political correctness.
Really?

Bill said:
Hmmm. You can certainly be sure a small bunch of extremists will try to fk things up, but I'm not sure we should be writing off the entire country.
I've been there, met a few Libyans, and they didn't seem particularly keen on Ghadaffi (or any politician for that matter) but were keen on the UK and US.

As I say, not worth writing them off, IMO.
Fair enough - I hope I never have first hand experience of Libya! I withdraw the snidey comments. Apologies.

But is the minority really insignificant? Or do they have the determination, position, arms and fear factor to be able to either lead actions against westerners that the pro-west people you met are sidelined/ignored, or even - potentially - to turn the country into one we'd perhaps have been best advised not to have helped, inadvertently but maybe predictably, create?

bobbylondonuk

2,197 posts

189 months

Thursday 24th January 2013
quotequote all
MX7 said:
It's quite funny that a certain section here dismiss out of hand our government's intelligence when the spotlight is on something like Iran, yet rub their hands with glee in the belief that it would be impossible that exactly the same source could have some misinformation when something like this arises.

Let's hope that a few get killed though, otherwise we'd miss out on all those fantastic "I told you so" posts.


It'll take a while for Libya to settle, and I don't think that many expected otherwise.
The I told you so brigade on here had a point, predicted something like this would happen even before any killing and even before we went in there to mess things up. And i dont need anyone killed to say I told you so! Quite a few of us did tell you so!

I guess we do need to see a few killed for you to say Yes...we were all told so.

Caulkhead

4,938 posts

156 months

Thursday 24th January 2013
quotequote all
Bill said:
Caulkhead said:
You can offer an islamic country freedom from a repressive dictator and the opportunity for democracy but don't hold your breath for them having a clue what to do with it.
Hmmm. You can certainly be sure a small bunch of extremists will try to fk things up, but I'm not sure we should be writing off the entire country.
I don't like to, but the recent results of the 'arab spring' suggests I'll be disappointed if I don't.

dudleybloke

19,688 posts

185 months

Thursday 24th January 2013
quotequote all
the "religion of peace" sure know about violence.

Art0ir

9,401 posts

169 months

Friday 25th January 2013
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dudleybloke said:
the "religion of peace" sure know about violence.
It doesn't help when we enable them by handing with cash, guns, ordinance and tech does it?

Reports in the WSJ showing these Libyan democracy enablers are the very same that attacked the Oil refinery in Algeria.

You would have hoped we had learnt out lessons about funding Al Qaeda after 9/11, but apparently not.

dudleybloke

19,688 posts

185 months

Friday 25th January 2013
quotequote all
yep. leave them too it and only get involved if they threaten GB.


The Don of Croy

5,973 posts

158 months

Friday 25th January 2013
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How much of this 'barbarism' is nature or nurture?

I've a feeling in me bones that the default position of 'man' is to fall in behind a leader - even a murderous and unhinged one, in the absence of anything stronger (thereby ensuring they survive the coming onslaught by siding with the stronger bully). Unless you happen to have a ready supply of food and energy and no immediate security issues, that is.

We in these civilised western 'democracies' defer to the state who is arbiter of justice, defender of the weak and feeder of the proles etc. Where the state is absent (see large LA housing estate or the Isle of Wight) someone else fills the void, usually without recourse to democratic niceties.

Until and unless somebody installs a functioning state (and it only took us a couple of hundred years) then presumably you're going to get all manner of unpleasantness unleashed as the bullies face up to see who's the daddy.

Anyone fancy a bit of state building?

Mermaid

21,492 posts

170 months

Friday 25th January 2013
quotequote all
dudleybloke said:
yep. leave them too it and only get involved if they threaten GB.
That's a good starting point, and no dodgy dossiers any more. Places like Iraq, Libya had been neutered and were not a threat to us.

Bill

52,407 posts

254 months

Friday 25th January 2013
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LostBMW said:
Fair enough - I hope I never have first hand experience of Libya! I withdraw the snidey comments. Apologies.

But is the minority really insignificant? Or do they have the determination, position, arms and fear factor to be able to either lead actions against westerners that the pro-west people you met are sidelined/ignored, or even - potentially - to turn the country into one we'd perhaps have been best advised not to have helped, inadvertently but maybe predictably, create?
It would be a mistake to consider them insignificant. Libya could go any number of ways, from complete basket case like Somalia to modern secular (if not entirely trouble free) state like Turkey. Either way it's a little premature to be writing them off, we took hundreds of years to thrash out a democracy so it won't happen over night in Libya.

Helping (ideally not by trying to install a puppet) them could backfire on us, but not trying to almost certainly will IMO.

When/if it all settles down I'd cheerfully go back because it's an amazing place.

croyde

22,641 posts

229 months

Friday 25th January 2013
quotequote all
Can't we just build giant walls around these countries and let them get on with it. Our military could use them for weapons testing. I'm sick of being PC, all it has done is made our country a worse place to live especially with the disturbed hornet's nest called terrorism.

Leave them alone and they may well leave us alone.

Mermaid

21,492 posts

170 months

Friday 25th January 2013
quotequote all
Bill said:
Either way it's a little premature to be writing them off, we took hundreds of years to thrash out a democracy so it won't happen over night in Libya.
As Gandhi said: Freedom is not worth having if it does not include the freedom to make mistakes.

And also when Mountbatten( I think) told Gandhi that India would be a mess if the British left, Gandhi replied "But, it will be our mess"

Leave them to evolve, at their pace and in their comfort zone.

robm3

4,927 posts

226 months

Sunday 27th January 2013
quotequote all
Guam said:
andymadmak said:
And to think of the fuss they make when a book gets burned. Here they are, descrating the dead, smashing headstones, taking hammers to Christian symbols. I've just about had enough of the double standards that the "Religion of Peace" displays every day around the world.
This ^^^^^ its time we told the arab springs to "DO ONE"

Let them kill each other and behave like savages
we should stop any aid forthwith, anyone who didnt see stuff like this coming needs a reality check imho!
Errr in case you hadnt noticed the Western World is currently dependent on this bunch to provide cheap energy, hence the constant 'meddling'.
No such problem/resource in Syria mind.

Raises another debate;
Imagine a Western World self sufficient. Could happen you know, that'd be outstanding fortune for USA, Germany, UK etc...

greygoose

8,201 posts

194 months

Sunday 27th January 2013
quotequote all
robm3 said:
Errr in case you hadnt noticed the Western World is currently dependent on this bunch to provide cheap energy, hence the constant 'meddling'.
No such problem/resource in Syria mind.

Raises another debate;
Imagine a Western World self sufficient. Could happen you know, that'd be outstanding fortune for USA, Germany, UK etc...
Isn't that the current prediction for America with their reserves of shale gas providing cheap energy, a boom in manufacturing, independence from the troubles of the Middle East etc.