Libya- 'rebels' show their gratitude

Libya- 'rebels' show their gratitude

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Jimbeaux

33,791 posts

230 months

Friday 2nd March 2012
quotequote all
DonkeyApple said:
The moronic leaders of the West, seeking short term returns will soon understand why savage dictators were previously left in control of such nations.

Will be interesting to see if the normal residents repair the damage done by the backward members.
Sadly, I am beginning to believe you. Those dictators realized that their own people had to be ruled in a manner akin to the Middle ages because that is their mentality.

Jimbeaux

33,791 posts

230 months

Friday 2nd March 2012
quotequote all
andymadmak said:
And to think of the fuss they make when a book gets burned. Here they are, descrating the dead, smashing headstones, taking hammers to Christian symbols. I've just about had enough of the double standards that the "Religion of Peace" displays every day around the world.
True. If we had a mob take hammers to a mosque the world would be set ablaze. Idiots, pure and simple.

Mermaid

21,492 posts

170 months

Friday 2nd March 2012
quotequote all
Jimbeaux said:
DonkeyApple said:
The moronic leaders of the West, seeking short term returns will soon understand why savage dictators were previously left in control of such nations.

Will be interesting to see if the normal residents repair the damage done by the backward members.
Sadly, I am beginning to believe you. Those dictators realized that their own people had to be ruled in a manner akin to the Middle ages because that is their mentality.
Different times, different cultures, different people at different stages of Maslow's heirarchy




Jimbeaux

33,791 posts

230 months

Friday 2nd March 2012
quotequote all
Mermaid said:
Rude-boy said:
bobbylondonuk said:
Some people on this planet require an iron fist to keep them in check. It is just a fact of life. Pretending otherwise is not going to do us or them any favours.
Having spent many years studying political history I have to say that this is totally correct. The only way to teach such peoples how to live any other way is to slowly reduce the levels of dependence and control over many, many years so that 3 or 4 generations down the line they are truly able to cope with a 'democratic' life.

Look at Russia for an example of the growing pains that are experienced, but although it is not a World most of us would want to live in they are slowly evolving. Sure 2 steps forward one back but such as is with any worthy endeavour usually.

Equally the reverse is true, just look at how feckless and 'lost' many of our own countrymen and women are without the firm hand of state control to guide, cajole and, if required, force them to become useful members of society.
This ^

We canot expect people to adapt to our ideals within a generation or 2 or even 3. Or longer.
Of course not but is simple civility, which they claim is a foundation of their religion, too much to ask while they evolve?

Bill

52,407 posts

254 months

Friday 2nd March 2012
quotequote all
Jimbeaux said:
Of course not but is simple civility, which they claim is a foundation of their religion, too much to ask while they evolve?
There's bound to be the odd blip but as a fledgling democracy they're doing alright IMO.

Rude-boy

22,227 posts

232 months

Friday 2nd March 2012
quotequote all
What a lot of these countries are doing is exchanging one tyrannical leadership based on the leaders ideals for another, in many cases based upon a fundamental interpretation of a religious text.

Religion is a distraction here, it is the stability of the control imposed that is sought, not the devotion to a religious ideal, but the blind following of an all powerful leadership.

We have not seen problems of this magnitude in Eastern Europe because firstly they were already further along the path from a feudal system (hence why they have ‘evolved’ faster than the Russians have) and secondly the religious nutjobs were not able to take over in the way that they have been able to do so in many of the Arabian countries.

The question we are dealing with goes far beyond religion and politics. It is a question of basic, almost instinctive, mentality. One that can only be changed over many, many years. Hell look how long it took the UK to get from the situation as it was in 1830 to where we were in 1945. Many of the Arabian countries are still where we were just after some chap called Oli had a bit of a barnie with a bloke called Charles.

There is no quick answer to this. The biggest problem is that the worst a few disaffected people could do back when we were going through all this was blow up (or try to) a few landmark building and important people. These days it is not beyond possibility that less than 10 people could render an entire country uninhabitable and kill millions in one go.

The game has remained the same since the dawn of time. The stakes as many magnitudes higher.

MX7

7,902 posts

173 months

Friday 2nd March 2012
quotequote all
bobbylondonuk said:
Because their religious differences are their problem..not ours. We believe in their secular and democratic individual freedoms and that is what we support. It is their responsibility to accept that and treat us accordingly.
You can't really expect a nation to act in unison over any issue.

bobbylondonuk said:
With regard to accepting what happens there as the actions of the few and not representative of the majority...I agree with you. But the majority of people here in the UK would feel upset at seeing this act against our national sacrifices. Not everyone will be accomodating and understanding as you and I.
Of course we are upset about it, but if we let those who are completely outraged and want us to ostracize Libya dictate, that would mean that the Salafist would rule on one side, and the 'not very accommodating' would rule on the other. The world would be a strange place if that were to happen.

bobbylondonuk said:
And hence my question......do we accept insults or dont bother to help? Because right now it doesnt feel good at all trying to help and being kicked in the nuts in return!
It's not an either/or situation. I'm sure that the damage can be undone, the perpetrators punished, and relations will continue as before.

At the moment it feels like people are saying that Geoffrey Howe was right because of the actions of a few cretins.

Countdown

39,607 posts

195 months

Friday 2nd March 2012
quotequote all
Jimbeaux said:
Of course not but is simple civility, which they claim is a foundation of their religion, too much to ask while they evolve?
Are you not tarring a whole nation as a result of the actions of a minority?

Apache

39,731 posts

283 months

Friday 2nd March 2012
quotequote all
Countdown said:
Jimbeaux said:
Of course not but is simple civility, which they claim is a foundation of their religion, too much to ask while they evolve?
Are you not tarring a whole nation as a result of the actions of a minority?
Surprisingly, I'm with CD on this, there are cocksockets everywhere and there is plenty of doubt as to who did this or why

Mermaid

21,492 posts

170 months

Friday 2nd March 2012
quotequote all
Countdown said:
Jimbeaux said:
Of course not but is simple civility, which they claim is a foundation of their religion, too much to ask while they evolve?
Are you not tarring a whole nation as a result of the actions of a minority?
Agreed, but that always happens. Even the accidental death of Marie Colvin had the media here in hyper drive about the Syrian regime, more so than when 6000 other people had been killed already.

Rude-boy

22,227 posts

232 months

Friday 2nd March 2012
quotequote all
Apache said:
Countdown said:
Jimbeaux said:
Of course not but is simple civility, which they claim is a foundation of their religion, too much to ask while they evolve?
Are you not tarring a whole nation as a result of the actions of a minority?
Surprisingly, I'm with CD on this, there are cocksockets everywhere and there is plenty of doubt as to who did this or why
Very much.

Jimbeaux, as you are aware I am not anti American at all but look at the history of your country and you will see a number of comparables from where they were in the early days with where a lot of the Arabian countries were, just a different religion. Equally look at how much weight is still placed on people's religious credentials in America, a country many would have thought would long since got over all that.


Soovy

35,829 posts

270 months

Friday 2nd March 2012
quotequote all
Savages.


Mermaid

21,492 posts

170 months

Friday 2nd March 2012
quotequote all
Rude-boy said:
Religion is a distraction here, it is the stability of the control imposed that is sought, not the devotion to a religious ideal, but the blind following of an all powerful leadership.

We have not seen problems of this magnitude in Eastern Europe because firstly they were already further along the path from a feudal system (hence why they have ‘evolved’ faster than the Russians have) and secondly the religious nutjobs were not able to take over in the way that they have been able to do so in many of the Arabian countries.

The question we are dealing with goes far beyond religion and politics. It is a question of basic, almost instinctive, mentality. One that can only be changed over many, many years.
.
A visit to Mea Shearim in Jerusalem reveals the gaps that exist even in a modern democratic state like Israel.

Jimbeaux

33,791 posts

230 months

Friday 2nd March 2012
quotequote all
Countdown said:
Jimbeaux said:
Of course not but is simple civility, which they claim is a foundation of their religion, too much to ask while they evolve?
Are you not tarring a whole nation as a result of the actions of a minority?
I suppose I was, which is wrong. However, let's see how they, and Egypt, and Syria go.

Edited by Jimbeaux on Friday 2nd March 15:07

Zaxxon

4,057 posts

159 months

Friday 2nd March 2012
quotequote all
Soovy said:
Savages.
Your not wrong...and their terroist arm called the CIA are really nasty smile

Jimbeaux

33,791 posts

230 months

Friday 2nd March 2012
quotequote all
Apache said:
Countdown said:
Jimbeaux said:
Of course not but is simple civility, which they claim is a foundation of their religion, too much to ask while they evolve?
Are you not tarring a whole nation as a result of the actions of a minority?
Surprisingly, I'm with CD on this, there are cocksockets everywhere and there is plenty of doubt as to who did this or why
You both are correct.

Rude-boy

22,227 posts

232 months

Friday 2nd March 2012
quotequote all
Mermaid said:
Agreed, but that always happens. Even the accidental death of Marie Colvin had the media here in hyper drive about the Syrian regime, more so than when 6000 other people had been killed already.
I found this to be one of the most sickening things, as I always have.

3,000 killed - lead news story for a few hours.

1 reporter killed - lead story on all formats, entire shows given over to it, etc, etc.

1 cameraman killed - passing mention at the end of a bulletin.

Makes me sick to the core not just how self serving they are but how blatant they are about it without anyone daring to challenge them.

But them only an idiot heckles the bloke with the microphone...


Jimbeaux

33,791 posts

230 months

Friday 2nd March 2012
quotequote all
Rude-boy said:
Apache said:
Countdown said:
Jimbeaux said:
Of course not but is simple civility, which they claim is a foundation of their religion, too much to ask while they evolve?
Are you not tarring a whole nation as a result of the actions of a minority?
Surprisingly, I'm with CD on this, there are cocksockets everywhere and there is plenty of doubt as to who did this or why
Very much.

Jimbeaux, as you are aware I am not anti American at all but look at the history of your country and you will see a number of comparables from where they were in the early days with where a lot of the Arabian countries were, just a different religion. Equally look at how much weight is still placed on people's religious credentials in America, a country many would have thought would long since got over all that.
True to an extent. "All that" in many ways is what gives us our values and drive. smile

Mermaid

21,492 posts

170 months

Friday 2nd March 2012
quotequote all
Jimbeaux said:
True to an extent. "All that" in many ways is what gives us our values and drive. smile
Jim is in a generous mood today thumbup

knk

1,264 posts

270 months

Friday 2nd March 2012
quotequote all
I escorted some veterans of the War in North Africa back to Libya a few years ago. The people were friendly, respectful and practised their religion in a quiet and moderate way. Their oft repeated wish was to be allowed a place back on the world stage and to escape from the isolation they had suffered since their last revolution.

They were extremely grateful to our veterans and the cemeteries were immaculately kept, by the Libyans.
I am sure this is the action of a few extremists, but I do worry that extremists tend to thrive in a power vacuum.

Kam