Private Policeforces!

[eldar]

Mr_annie_vxr said:

Simple jobs can be done in 2 hours. Sometimes quicker. However most jobs aren't always simple

I suspected that may be the case! Could it be streamlined, some of the tasks privatised or eliminated/simplified?

[DonkeyApple]

Derek Smith said:

Let us look at employing retired police officers from a good and bad point of view.

Firstly training: good. Most have spent 25 - 30 years doing the same job.

Secondly wages: good, they work for basic plus 10%. You would be unlikely to get many literate recruits for that sort of money.

Thirdly, chatting in offices: according to my ex colleagues this is again good as most don't have offices.

On-costs: good. They use their own cars for the lowest mileage allowance.

Effective: again good as in many cases they know the persons they are dealing with.

Getting rid of ineffective staff: excellent. They are on short term contracts, or at least they used to be.

Willingness to try new systems: good. One good friend of mine started a system which actually saved more than his wages for the contracted period.

So, digs about illiteracy aside, the idea of using (not exclusively) retired police officers proved a total success story. Apart from when, of course, the police budget was cut by more than 20%. Something had to go and it was the contracted staff who were easier to shed and who would be easier to regain once recruitment started again in earnest, as we all know it will in time.

The complaints about too much paperwork are based in fact. A prisoner takes a PC off the street for a shift or more. There is much on the internet to show just how much paperwork is required.

The stories about PCs wanting to spend time in the nick rather than go out on the street is the invention of rags like the Daily Mail. Their journos don't believe it of course but many of their readers aparently do. Perhpas it is just the pathetically stupid ones.

I know I'll not convince you, DA, despite the fact that I spent 30 years in the job, and many of the other police officers and ex on here will tell the same, but the paperwork takes all the time. The police actually beat you to your suggestion - by some 25 years or more, in trying to limit the paperwork but the government, Home Office and other sundries interfere in processes they know nothing about, like some salesman trying to tell a doctor how to do an operation, and generate it all and then blame the police for being frightened of stepping out onto patrol.

I often think it is those who would be frightened of going out on patrol on their own, with little or no back up apart from innate common sense, who put these stories about. I can't believe that they actually believe the myth.

But as I say, I'm not writing this to convince the terminally prejudiced but hopefully it might make someone a bit more open-minded think again.

Not sure what the suicide dig is about. The one thing about people killing themselves is that it is not a cry for help you know. It means, as little else does, that they have reached the end of their tether. You'd know this if you were a police officer.

There's nothing to convince me of at all.

I asked a question, you gave a prick's response. Hence my retort.

[F i F]

DonkeyApple said:

There's nothing to convince me of at all.

I asked a question, you gave a prick's response. Hence my retort.

Sorry to butt in this little face off, but with respect he gave you the answer you deserved.

If you think the paperwork and requirements associated with a crime and an arrest is similar to a sales closure then it's clear you haven't appreciated the details.

How do you communicate the details to the admin backup, and keep the evidential trail, even more paperwork / systems.

Do you get where your customer who has agreed an order turn round later with his lawyer and deny it was him who placed the order and ask you to prove his identity. Despite the fact you've dealt with him fifty times before. Yes he did place an order, just not that order. Substitute placing an order for smashing a shop window and you can see where I'm coming from.

Then these people saying booking in is a simple process, yes it is in the co-operative world, but not when every single request is met with a "fk off copper, make me!"

[dandarez]

Only one thing will tell. Time.

Do instincts tell me that in a few years CMD will have lived up to his original aim, to become Bliar2?

We're so blind we've fallen for the same trick twice.

God help us, God help this country. The State is becoming the almighty.
Welcome to the doorstep to totalitarianism, or is the foot already inside the door?

[Halb]

dandarez said:

God help us, God help this country. The State is becoming the almighty.
Welcome to the doorstep to totalitarianism, or is the foot already inside the door?

More like a road to more of a Corptocracy where we still have high/lots of taxes and still have big government...only with the added bonus of lots of private firms doing the essentials.
Better be rich in that world...or feckless.

[Disco_Dale]

Hope all the tossers who pinned their colours to their own particular favourite colour of prick are pleased with themselves. We knew the tories wanted to tear up the NHS, but even the most dyed in the wool, hard of thinking tory fanboys didn't see this one coming did you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLfghLQE3F4

fking told you.

[DonkeyApple]

F i F said:

Sorry to butt in this little face off, but with respect he gave you the answer you deserved.

If you think the paperwork and requirements associated with a crime and an arrest is similar to a sales closure then it's clear you haven't appreciated the details.

How do you communicate the details to the admin backup, and keep the evidential trail, even more paperwork / systems.

Do you get where your customer who has agreed an order turn round later with his lawyer and deny it was him who placed the order and ask you to prove his identity. Despite the fact you've dealt with him fifty times before. Yes he did place an order, just not that order. Substitute placing an order for smashing a shop window and you can see where I'm coming from.

Then these people saying booking in is a simple process, yes it is in the co-operative world, but not when every single request is met with a "fk off copper, make me!"

That wasn't what I said at all.

I didn't make any comparison to the work. Merely asked a question as to whether a mechanism based on total specialisation of labour would be beneficial.

Every policemen I have spoken with socially mentions that the paperwork is for ever becoming worse and stopping them from spending enough time outside.

Surely, if admin cannot be cut then other solutions may be available?

Edited by DonkeyApple on Monday 5th March 08:00

[F i F]

Well obviously I have misinterpreted the inference in what you were saying, apologies for that.

I just considered the different natures of the business and the types of "customers" involved.

Consider this, if the information has to be handled by some specialist admin team / person, who tells them what to handle, the content of that information and how do they do that?

>points at the other thread, a lousy desktop system be it IT/paper based when made mobile is still a lousy system<

Apologies for wandering off topic and doing a Derek as it seems to annoy you but, over the years there have been some bloody stupid rules imposed. At one time no-one above a certain level in SMT was permitted to type direct into computers, they had to be dictated to a secretary. Now I don't know about you but I'm st at dictation. So you got people who recognised they were st, but not allowed to rattle a keyboard, thus they wrote their letters / reports out in longhand, maybe a second draft too, then summoned the secretary to "dictate" the letter from the crib sheet. Different era, just as stupid.

[DonkeyApple]

F i F said:

Well obviously I have misinterpreted the inference in what you were saying, apologies for that.

I just considered the different natures of the business and the types of "customers" involved.

Consider this, if the information has to be handled by some specialist admin team / person, who tells them what to handle, the content of that information and how do they do that?

>points at the other thread, a lousy desktop system be it IT/paper based when made mobile is still a lousy system<

Apologies for wandering off topic and doing a Derek as it seems to annoy you but, over the years there have been some bloody stupid rules imposed. At one time no-one above a certain level in SMT was permitted to type direct into computers, they had to be dictated to a secretary. Now I don't know about you but I'm st at dictation. So you got people who recognised they were st, but not allowed to rattle a keyboard, thus they wrote their letters / reports out in longhand, maybe a second draft too, then summoned the secretary to "dictate" the letter from the crib sheet. Different era, just as stupid.

Thanks.

In terms of specialist labour to be in the office, surely decades of beat police retiring extremely young has not been prudent?

Surely, once an age is reached when active service isn't practical then a remaining 15 odd years of clerical support is valid?

Retiring knowledgeable people out decades before they need to and still effectively paying them to sit at home hasn't been the best use of the specialist manpower?

I also suspect that my level of sales team concept is also infinitely higher and more complex that maybe what the average person thinks of when they think of a sales team.

[F i F]

DonkeyApple said:

Thanks.

In terms of specialist labour to be in the office, surely decades of beat police retiring extremely young has not been prudent?

Surely, once an age is reached when active service isn't practical then a remaining 15 odd years of clerical support is valid?

Retiring knowledgeable people out decades before they need to and still effectively paying them to sit at home hasn't been the best use of the specialist manpower?

I also suspect that my level of sales team concept is also infinitely higher and more complex that maybe what the average person thinks of when they think of a sales team.

Don't disagree with a single word of that.

Sales teams don't just sell copier paper, although some do, obviously. Real life is a LOT more complex, risks are different but can have equally staggering consequences.

[Derek Smith]

F i F said:

Well obviously I have misinterpreted the inference in what you were saying, apologies for that.

I just considered the different natures of the business and the types of "customers" involved.

Consider this, if the information has to be handled by some specialist admin team / person, who tells them what to handle, the content of that information and how do they do that?

>points at the other thread, a lousy desktop system be it IT/paper based when made mobile is still a lousy system<

Apologies for wandering off topic and doing a Derek as it seems to annoy you but, over the years there have been some bloody stupid rules imposed. At one time no-one above a certain level in SMT was permitted to type direct into computers, they had to be dictated to a secretary. Now I don't know about you but I'm st at dictation. So you got people who recognised they were st, but not allowed to rattle a keyboard, thus they wrote their letters / reports out in longhand, maybe a second draft too, then summoned the secretary to "dictate" the letter from the crib sheet. Different era, just as stupid.

My force's process unit tried something similar in the mid-90s. The same sort of problem arose: for some it saved time for others it made things more difficult or foced them to learn skills that were only essential for the time saving processes. So they gave options. This was sensible to my mind. However, CPS were not so happy with three or four different processes and demanded a norm.

That, I think, is part of the problem. The police are, or at least were although I've not heard of any change to the system, under the control of a number of masters, soon to inherit another as well. One says do it this way, the next says that is wrong and they want it changed to this, and then a third puts the boot in.

We started picking out highlights of interviews rather than retyping the whole thing word for word. This meant time saving all the way through. However, this did not, at the time although I believe things have since changed, conform to disclosure requirements despite the tape recording being made available to the defence. So we had to employ dictaphone typists to put the whole interview into Word. However, the CPS still required the highlights.

In one process unit there were banks of photocopiers when CPS demanded a dozen copies of the complete file. For a big job this could take days. The auto systems then were far from reliable so someone had to do it by hand. Digital copies were not good engough at the time, this despite most of the copies remaining unopened, unread and not saved.

One of the process inspectors kept a crib sheet which he gave to newcomers to the department who came up with brilliant ideas to save time and money. It contained all the previous good ideas that had been blocked by the HO, CPS or the courts. It was one of the good ideas that CPS could not stop.

And that is just process units.

So privatising such functions looks good on paper but there will be no incentive to cut the amount of work required, just the opposite. At the moment short cuts can be made and the savings go directly to the police. Further, whilst CPS might say that want this, that and the other, they are open to argument, to a limited degree.

Admin functions in my last force were almost exclusively done by civvy staff. The process units normally had an inspector at the head with a couple of sergeants but the control and supervision of the processes was left to a civvy. Nicks had a senior civilian manager whose job it was to perform all the admin with their staff. I would certainly not expect to have to order ink cartridges or even put one in a printer except, in the latter case, if I was working late or over the weekend.

I ran an ID unit with one sergeant and four civvy staff. The proportion of officers to civvies was considerably higher than most station bound units. In April 2003 I put forward a suggestion that civvies could run the showing of video film identifications. All that the inspector had to do was supervise and OK the film. This was not taken up at the time.

The propsoed outsourcing will cost more, of that there is little doubt. It always does.

[BoRED S2upid]

Sounds like the Torys are proposing bounty hunters to me! we are becoming the new USofA.

[Halb]

"Surrey Police puts roles for private firms on hold.
We don't want any tourists or visitors being beaten up by private gangs of thugs, we'll wait until they leave so just Brits will get clobbered," says CC or something lie that.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18105253

[Elroy Blue]

Firstly we have the scandal that Tom Winsor, whose report recommended significant Police privatisation, is a partner in a law firm that advised G4S on how to bid for privatised police work. The Government unsurprisingly does not view this as a conflict of interest.

The services that West Mids have put out to tender are as follows (lifted straight from the tender document):

— Assure service – manage performance, maintain professional standards, assure compliance, manage risk, provide legal services,
— Bring offenders to justice – investigate crimes, detain suspects, non-judicial disposal, develop cases, support prosecution,
— Deal with incidents – respond to incidents, manage scenes of incidents, investigate incidents, manage major incidents, support victims and witnesses,
— Lead service – supports the Leadership of the organisation to develop strategy, policy and plans, manage change, and manage partnerships,
— Manage public engagement – patrol neighbourhoods, manage public relations, manage customer relationships, report on performance, manage contact,
— Manage resources – manage suppliers, manage finance, manage people, manage ICT, manage fleet and livestock, manage equipment, manage facilities,
— Protect the public – manage high risk individuals, improve communities, protect vulnerable people, disrupt criminal networks, manage planned operations, protect vulnerable places, manage licensing, manage road safety,
— Support operational services – manage duty and tasking, manage forensics, provide specialist services, gather police information, manage property and evidence, manage intelligence.
This list of services is not exhaustive and consideration may be given to inclusion of additional services or options for additional services of a similar nature to be provided on an incremental basis, which will assist in delivering the forces objectives.
The lot 1 supplier will be expected to work closely with the lot 2 supplier in order to deliver integrated transformation across services with the forces.

And people STILL think Cameron is not on a mission to privatise the Police.

[GTiVR6]

Look how May is associated with G4S, via Prudential, along with a number of others involved in the "reform".

The thing will be a total disaster, yes, but there are still remnants of bone idle officers in some stations - and it is these who should feel the brunt, not the hard-working majority. As I was working with another SC the other night, double-crewed, we had passed comment on issuing a VDRS to a car with no brake lights showing to the rear. Regular officer who had barely been out of the nick all night and was having yet another fag-break with another regular, commented that it was a waste of a double-crewed car to be doing traffic jobs.

Still, more chance of doing some policing if you actually leave the station. And we're not even paid so can't complain about that either.

[Derek Smith]

Elroy Blue said:

Firstly we have the scandal that Tom Winsor, whose report recommended significant Police privatisation, is a partner in a law firm that advised G4S on how to bid for privatised police work. The Government unsurprisingly does not view this as a conflict of interest.

A scandal? I beg to differ. It is the norm. Those in government have favourites and these get all the jobs. When various MPs retire/are kicked out they get the plum jobs that they were negotiating for. It is totally corrupt and costs this country £millions. But a scandal? Hardly. No one cares it would appear.

Someone will make £millions from Windsor's report and most of us would nominate the same person. If we were to point this out to a newspaper they would not print it. It happens all the time, read the Eye. It is expenses but without the fuss.

The West Mids tender shows exactly how policing will be performed in years to come. The most fundamental change in policing this country has seen and it was done on the nod. No one is bothered and will not be until they are dealt with by theis privetised force.

Remember how parking regulations were enforced before they were handed over to private industry and local authority control? Southampton Row was in the news recently. It returned £1million+ in fines. That is what the enforcers will be doing with the law.

[thinfourth2]

So we can expect profit driven policing

Now who can we think of that are easy targets and pay their fines


I'm have tempted to turn pie person

[BlackLabel]

Holy thread resurrection......

article said:

Three of London's wealthiest neighbourhoods are set to benefit from their own private police force.

Former Metropolitan police detectives Tony Nash and David McKelvey will next month launch a private agency to police the streets of Knightsbridge, Belgravia and Mayfair, The Sunday Times has reported.

The force, named My Local Bobby, will make citizens arrests and gather evidence to launch private prosecutions.

It will also offer residents the option of paying a monthly retainer which will entitle them to a range of services including cyber security checks and escorting them home from local tube stations at night.

article said:

The force will reportedly be made up of 20 private officers who will patrol the districts wearing body cameras.

These private cops will be able to make citizens arrests but will have to hand over the suspects to Scotland Yard.

The company has also reportedly signed a memorandum of understanding with the Met allowing the agency access to the Police National Computer (PNC).

http://uk.businessinsider.com/londons-wealthiest-neighborhoods-will-get-own-private-police-force-2017-3?r=US&IR=T

[valiant]

Heard on the radio this morning that the STimes reporter stretched the truth a bit with regards to access to the PNC.

Private security companies will not have access to the PNC, however if a private prosecution be successful, data from that can be uploaded to the PNC.

[Halb]

Privilege

UK 2017, marvellous place