Public sector national pay rates could be about to end

[davepoth]

sawman said:

I'd like to know how public and private sector salarys can be compared when many of the things public sector employees do it not available in the private sector.

Many public sector jobs could have that argument. But the majority of public sector workers are administrators, for which there is a definite parallel.

[sawman]

Sticks. said:

But there is still a good argument for moving central govt jobs to where the pay and premises costs are lower.

Eta although when the last gov did this it was accused of buying votes in those areas

And it might be these jobs created in deprived/low paid regions that is now showing the anomaly in salaries?

[sidicks]

motco said:

It's always that they are allegedly paid LESS that justifies their pensions.

So what happens when you adjust for the typical 20-25% public sector pension subsidy.....

[Sticks.]

sawman said:

And it might be these jobs created in deprived/low paid regions that is now showing the anomaly in salaries?

Could well be.

It'll be interesting to see if the proposals include the local flexibility to pay more in high cost areas when and if pri sec pay recovers.

[Use Psychology]

Jobbo said:

While I agree in principle that the public sector shouldn't be paid more than the private sector, there's a problem with viewing this locally. An enormous public sector employer (such as the DVLA) is going to skew the local averages. Public sector employees should really be paid a similar amount wherever they are in the country if they're doing a similar job.

Which brings me on to the slightly worrying statistic that public sector employees are paid a mere 0.5% less than private in the south east. Why are they paid so much in the south east? That region is the main contributor to GPD in England, so surely there should be a much bigger gap.

on average?

because public sector workers are better qualified than private sector workers.

[sawman]

Sticks. said:

Could well be.

It'll be interesting to see if the proposals include the local flexibility to pay more in high cost areas when and if pri sec pay recovers.

I would image that will be the slant of the sales pitch on this one, of course we all know that in practice this will not happen.

Much like agenda for change was!

[DieselGriff]

davepoth said:

Many public sector jobs could have that argument. But the majority of public sector workers are administrators, for which there is a definite parallel.

I think it's a little disingenuous to say the majority (I'm thinking armed forces, NHS, police etc) although it would be fair to say these industries have far more administrators per "productive" (let's call Doctors and nurses productive, those that handle their payroll administrators for example) member of staff.

Part of this is a result of having these industries in the public sector - if a private sector service provider does not deliver then it dies, if a public sector fails to deliver then a politician (or political party)is seen to fail and we can't be having that, so a lot more resources are put into this area than is necessary, one of the big failings of public services is the bureaucracy caused by it's own existence.

The other point, one that is a personal perception but one I'd like clarified, is that the public sector appears to have for more middle/higher management than their private sector equivalents could hope, or want, to sustain. In the private sector you need as few of these as can get away with, a good manager is one that gets the most out of as many people\resources as possible and can do the majority of the jobs they manage, this IME does not exist within the public sector.

[mph1977]

Jobbo said:

I don't see how, economically, the country can support a situation where the public sector get paid more than the private sector.

regardless of the value of the roles - these 'average' figures are misleading

- why are they misleading ?

as we've attempted to discuss on here before the public sector has a large number of professionals who are essential to service delivery Police Constables and Sergeants, Nurses, AHPs (Physios, OTs, ODPs, radiographers, biomedical scientist types in the labs ) ....) etc as well as teachers - jobs which are graduate entry and have serious responsibilities including routine 'life and death' decision making ....

they will be Means or medians - the mean will be influenced by the VSM pay (not )scales where bosses are voting themselves ever higher renumeration without regard to the value of the job on any meaningful evaluation scale

all abandoning national pay scales for the public sector will lead to is a flight of the best staff to somewhere felt to have the best balance between local pay rates and local cost of living - and/or you'll get areas where pay rates and /or job descriptions ( and pay bandings) are fudged constantly as organisations battle to recruit and retain

[eldar]

sawman said:

My particular role is present on both sides and I would happily be aligned to a like skilled professional solely in private sector employ - I reckon my salary will at least double!

Seems the obvious question, why don't you move to the private sector?

[DieselGriff]

eldar said:

Seems the obvious question, why don't you move to the private sector?

Motivation in employment is not restricted to remuneration, I changed my last job and took a pay cut of about 1/3rd but the relief of getting out far surpassed the benefits of the greater salary.

[sidicks]

mph1977 said:

regardless of the value of the roles - these 'average' figures are misleading

- why are they misleading ?

Presumably they are misleading as they fail to recognise the huge pension subsidy?!

Edited by sidicks on Saturday 17th March 17:02

[motco]

sidicks said:

motco said:

It's always that they are allegedly paid LESS that justifies their pensions.

So what happens when you adjust for the typical 20-25% public sector pension subsidy.....

You must have missed the irony in my tone...

[sidicks]

motco said:

You must have missed the irony in my tone...

[sawman]

eldar said:

sawman said:

My particular role is present on both sides and I would happily be aligned to a like skilled professional solely in private sector employ - I reckon my salary will at least double!

Seems the obvious question, why don't you move to the private sector?

Fundamentally, I am committed to the notion that healthcare should be available to whoever needs it rather than limited to those with good insurance policies.

[turbobloke]

sawman said:

eldar said:

sawman said:

My particular role is present on both sides and I would happily be aligned to a like skilled professional solely in private sector employ - I reckon my salary will at least double!

Seems the obvious question, why don't you move to the private sector?

Fundamentally, I am committed to the notion that healthcare should be available to whoever needs it rather than limited to those with good insurance policies.

If your salary were to drop after the budget due to the area you live and work, assuming they're reasonably close, would you consider moving i.e. move jobs as a result if the reduction was (say) the 8% claimed national difference between public and private sectors? Not intending to pry, just curious.

[sawman]

turbobloke said:

sawman said:

eldar said:

sawman said:

My particular role is present on both sides and I would happily be aligned to a like skilled professional solely in private sector employ - I reckon my salary will at least double!

Seems the obvious question, why don't you move to the private sector?

Fundamentally, I am committed to the notion that healthcare should be available to whoever needs it rather than limited to those with good insurance policies.

If your salary were to drop after the budget due to the area you live and work, assuming they're reasonably close, would you consider moving i.e. move jobs as a result if the reduction was (say) the 8% claimed national difference between public and private sectors? Not intending to pry, just curious.

It would certainly be looking around as would everyone else who lives in a poor pay area. You can imagine the wider recruitment issues that this could throw up.

Over the last 2-3 years I have not seen an annual rise so have already had a drop in income, Changes to pensions, and my mileage rate has been halved despite fuel prices increasing, To then take an 8% paycut.......

I would probably head overseas, tbh

[turbobloke]

sawman said:

turbobloke said:

sawman said:

eldar said:

sawman said:

My particular role is present on both sides and I would happily be aligned to a like skilled professional solely in private sector employ - I reckon my salary will at least double!

Seems the obvious question, why don't you move to the private sector?

Fundamentally, I am committed to the notion that healthcare should be available to whoever needs it rather than limited to those with good insurance policies.

If your salary were to drop after the budget due to the area you live and work, assuming they're reasonably close, would you consider moving i.e. move jobs as a result if the reduction was (say) the 8% claimed national difference between public and private sectors? Not intending to pry, just curious.

It would certainly be looking around as would everyone else who lives in a poor pay area. You can imagine the wider recruitment issues that this could throw up.

Over the last 2-3 years I have not seen an annual rise so have already had a drop in income, Changes to pensions, and my mileage rate has been halved despite fuel prices increasing, To then take an 8% paycut.......

I would probably head overseas, tbh

You're not alone in that inflation pay cut, nor I expect in looking overseas should matters get worse.

[Pupp]

Presumably MPs will be leading by example then...?

[DieselGriff]

Pupp said:

Presumably MPs will be leading by example then...?

Ah, yes. Just waiting for old Nick to say it's getting a bit chilly.

[TankRizzo]

As I understand it pay won't be getting "cut" anyway, more that as other parts get rises and bonuses, those areas will not. So a cut in real terms but only due to inflation.

Doesn't sound so juicy a union soundbite when you put it like that, does it.