Sunday Trading Laws... Beginning of the End?

[XDA]

0000 said:

XDA said:

Yes, 12 days in a row with no day off. Hardly a mon-fri mindset....

It's not an occasional weekend, I work a rota so do 1 in 5 weekends.

Occasional in other words.

Occasional? Don't think so.

It's not 1 in 2 weekends that I used to do, but hardly occasional. It's still (up to) an extra 15-20 hours per week.

0000 said:

XDA said:

Try driving 100-200 miles everyday for 12 days, as well as doing between 8-10 hours work per day for 12 days straight. Give it a go first before judging me?

I have done it and then some, not that you're judging. Sunday was still always the easiest day to go shopping, impeded by having to get there before 4pm on a day of the week when I'd usually be trying to fit other errands in like the annual car service every three months, or tyres, etc.

Not that it matters one iota - you being a bit tired from your job isn't a reason for everyone else to not benefit.

The only people that benefit are those not having to work extra hours each week. They are free to enjoy their full weekends whereas the rest of us have to work at the expense of our weekends just so that you can get that loaf of bread....

What a shame that your Sunday is impeded by an early closing. Spare a thought for those of us who don't have the opportunity to do any errands on Sundays.

Sunday working isn't optional so I end up losing a day, only for my overtime to disappear in tax each month. If rather not pay anymore tax than I really have to.

F i F said:

I'm quite happy that you disagree XDA, however I think that the 9-5 mindset is maybe not you but that of your employer. It seems that employees are required to work Mon-Fri with weekends being extra on a rota basis.

If the demand turns into 7 days, then the correct way to do this in my opinion is plan for it without requiring excessive hours.

In my time I've done the 12 days plus without a day off, also done the 72 hours without and rest, and nearly ended up in the hospital because of it, so understand the position well.

My employer runs 24/7 365 days a year.

I agree. But that means employers having to pay out more money in double time overtime payments.

As I said repeatedly. I don't mind working the current hours on a Sunday. While I'd rather not work a Sunday, 10am-4pm seems like a fair compromise?

[0000]

XDA said:

What a shame that your Sunday is impeded by an early closing. Spare a thought for those of us who don't have the opportunity to do any errands on Sundays.

You only occasionally work Sundays in a job that you choose to do, so I really don't get your point.

[dcb]

Murph7355 said:

Maybe we'd have less traffic each day as it'll be spread over more days?

+1

Having seen the massive queues and big car parks at my local supermarket,
anything that spreads that load of customers more widely across the weekend
has to be good news.

Murph7355 said:

My point is that if *you* need that day of rest then that's fine, take one. Pick one. Any one.

But if *I* don't feel such a need, then why should your need preclude that? Who are you to judge that I need a day of rest? And what else would you like to be able to interfere with

+1.

I note with interest that in at least some parts of the USA, all stores
could open whenever they wanted at least thirty years ago.

It hasn't destroyed family life or made folks less religious, it's
merely given them more choice of shopping time.

More choice is a good thing.

[F i F]

XDA said:

My employer runs 24/7 365 days a year.

I agree. But that means employers having to pay out more money in double time overtime payments.

As I said repeatedly. I don't mind working the current hours on a Sunday. While I'd rather not work a Sunday, 10am-4pm seems like a fair compromise?

OK fair enough, obviously I'm not explaining this mind set concept too well.

I'm really trying to understand, honest I am, but I don't completely follow.

Employer runs 24/7 365 days a year, right, got that.

So presumably you have a 4 shift or 5 shift pattern? With people rostered to work nights and weekends as part of their regular hours? If so why pay Sundays at double time? OK they may get a shift premium granted.

Or is it that the night time and weekends covered by on call overtime working, and then people expected to roll up Monday 9am as normal.

Or maybe shifts in week and weekends by on call overtime.

If it's the last two options then it still seems like a Mon-Fri mind set with bodging a service level delivery on at weekends.

[Gretchen]

princealbert23 said:

The Hypno-Toad said:

Getragdogleg said:

I will buck the PH trend and say I wish pubs and shops were closed on Sundays, not for any religious sky pixie reasons but as a day where people could spend time off from work and be with family and friends relaxing.

The losers are the shop workers or those in lower paid jobs who have to do a rota that would become 7 day. we have become a nation of shoppers and a day out is now "bluewater" or "a mall" FFS, when did we lose our imaginations, we live in a great place with decent scenery but we spend our time in shops.

As for pubs, I think there is too much access to alcohol and the people who can least resist it are the ones who are in the pub all the time getting pissed.

Family values are lost, as is the art of converstion and I blame the 24 hour gratification culture that is being rolled out across our land by the greedy bds who stand to make more money from longer opening hours, I bet they don't work on a fking Sunday.

I'm right there bucking it with you because I agree with you 100%.

+1

I've been saying this for years.

I agree completely, even to the point I think the recession is down to 7 day 24 hour opening. Overheads in retail must be phenomenal compared to a few decades ago, rent, lighting bills, staffing.

And, as said there's a huge loss of family tradition. My Father worked Monday-Friday, late several nights during the week, and often back in his office for a few hours on a Saturday morning. Sunday's were for his children and my Mum. Picnics, days flying kites, teaching us to ride bikes and fix stuff, he'd be tinkering in his workshop or garden. We never went to Church, Sunday school for a few years but we certainly weren't worshipping Supermarkets and retail parks.

How many of you posting to keep Sunday trading alive would be prepared to go in to your place of work every Sunday? Because it will have a knock on effect. If I can shop on a Sunday why can't I bank, have my architect in, send my kids to school, pop to the post office or attend court? *

Many of those who work in retail will be minimum wage earners struggling enough as it is to raise a family. Where do you think those kids are on a Sunday while their parents are at work?Would it really be that much of a hardship not to be able to pop out for a new hat on a Sunday? Surely we'll shop when the shops are open. And the country can return to raising the future generation.

As a whole I don't think any business should be open on a Sunday. I live somewhere where the nearest pint of milk is 2 miles away. Or next door at my neighbours. I'd rather pop there on a Sunday than to the shop. My doctor's not open on a Sunday. If the kids break an arm they can wait til Monday morning. It'll teach them survival. Same if my house is on fire on a Sunday, perhaps they'd be more community spirit if 999 services weren't available.

• I appreciate some of you do work Sundays.And that drs, nurses and other emergency services are available 24/7/365.

[MOTORVATOR]

Doesn't Sunday trading just raise the retail cost of goods. Assuming they collectively sell the same quantity of goods but over 6 days rather than 7 then surely their staff costs reduce and the cost to the punter is less?

And if we can shop, is it not also fair to demand that we should also be able to trade shares, do our general banking or have a plumber round at the same cost as in the week?

And on from that should schools not be available seven days a week but the individual child only has to attend any 5 of those 7 days so that they can be with their parents on the free days?

And further still, shouldn't the Grand Prix and FA Cup be on alternating days of the week so that everyone has the opportunity of attending?

[Gretchen]

MOTORVATOR said:

Doesn't Sunday trading just raise the retail cost of goods. Assuming they collectively sell the same quantity of goods but over 6 days rather than 7 then surely their staff costs reduce and the cost to the punter is less?

And if we can shop, is it not also fair to demand that we should also be able to trade shares, do our general banking or have a plumber round at the same cost as in the week?

And on from that should schools not be available seven days a week but the individual child only has to attend any 5 of those 7 days so that they can be with their parents on the free days?

And further still, shouldn't the Grand Prix and FA Cup be on alternating days of the week so that everyone has the opportunity of attending?

Yes. And then you'll have women demanding rights too. Like having their posts read .

[King Herald]

rs1952 said:

King Herald said:

B Huey said:

It's not that long ago when nothing opened, Pubs where only open 12-2 then from 7-10.

Ahem, it is about 25 years ago mate.

Erm .....

The boozer I will be going to at about 9.30 tonight has the following opening hours:

Monday - Friday 7pm - 11pm
Saturday 12 noon - 2.30pm, 7pm - 11pm
Sunday 12 noon - 2.30pm, 7pm - 10.30pm

You live in Wales? Scotland? Gis a clue.

[MOTORVATOR]

Gretchen said:

Yes. And then you'll have women demanding rights too. Like having their posts read .

Teach me not to refresh a page before responding. Consider me chastised.

[Mojooo]

MOTORVATOR said:

Doesn't Sunday trading just raise the retail cost of goods. Assuming they collectively sell the same quantity of goods but over 6 days rather than 7 then surely their staff costs reduce and the cost to the punter is less?

And if we can shop, is it not also fair to demand that we should also be able to trade shares, do our general banking or have a plumber round at the same cost as in the week?

And on from that should schools not be available seven days a week but the individual child only has to attend any 5 of those 7 days so that they can be with their parents on the free days?

And further still, shouldn't the Grand Prix and FA Cup be on alternating days of the week so that everyone has the opportunity of attending?

What will happen is that people will spend more money - that they dont have.

Think of the envirnomental issues too - every single supermarket in the UK staying open an extra 5 hours!

[rs1952]

King Herald said:

rs1952 said:

King Herald said:

B Huey said:

It's not that long ago when nothing opened, Pubs where only open 12-2 then from 7-10.

Ahem, it is about 25 years ago mate.

Erm .....

The boozer I will be going to at about 9.30 tonight has the following opening hours:

Monday - Friday 7pm - 11pm
Saturday 12 noon - 2.30pm, 7pm - 11pm
Sunday 12 noon - 2.30pm, 7pm - 10.30pm

You live in Wales? Scotland? Gis a clue.

Read the profile

South West of England. Darkest Wiltshire actually. But the pub opens at those hours beause the landlord wants to, not because he's told to. As somebody else has already said, which is exactly how it should be.



PS - just got back

[Crafty_]

I don't really see what the fuss is about to be honest. If retailers want to be open, then let em open.

This "we should shut down everything so Sunday is a family orientated day" argument is cobblers. It implies that there people out there that are going to go "Well, seeing as the shops are open I'm going to go there for no particular reason instead of staying here with family" wtf ? are we incapable of making our own decisions ?

Presumably we should close petrol stations, pharmacists and the like ? what if racetracks and all other sports venues closed on Sundays as well ? after all people work there ? No btcc or meets like sunday service/goodwood breakfast club etc ?
How about pubs too ? then the bar staff can spend time at home ?

[Murph7355]

So the social ills of the country (or rather *increased* social ills) are being prevented by Sunday trading laws?

If so, why not implement similar laws for Saturdays? Or more days a week (my gran's old village used to shut down Wednesday afternoons too)? After all, we're suffering huge issues now I believe...

To my knowledge there isn't a law preventing children being educated at a weekend (or after normal hours). If there's sufficient demand for something, it'll work. If not, organisations won't bother.

Again, has the licensing law change resulted in every single pub and bar being open for extended hours? Staff being forced to work 24hrs a day and not look after their kids? Personally I barely noticed any change (and I love a pub). I suspect the same would be the case if the Sunday trading laws were scrubbed from the book.

I can't reconcile Sunday trading laws with a breakdown in family values, morals and similar social issues. To me these things are currently a problem because of personal responsibility/accountability (or a lack thereof) and the Sunday trading laws make sod all difference in this.

[XDA]

0000 said:

XDA said:

What a shame that your Sunday is impeded by an early closing. Spare a thought for those of us who don't have the opportunity to do any errands on Sundays.

You only occasionally work Sundays in a job that you choose to do, so I really don't get your point.

You conveniently miss out my other points.

Yes, I work Sunday's in a job I chose. My point is (as I've repeatedly said but you've not quoted...) that there is no need to extend Sunday opening beyond what they are now. 10am-4pm seems ample given the fact that most shops are quiet on a Sunday....

F i F said:

Or is it that the night time and weekends covered by on call overtime working, and then people expected to roll up Monday 9am as normal.

If it's the last two options then it still seems like a Mon-Fri mind set with bodging a service level delivery on at weekends.

As above. On call is evenings and weekends as per a set rota.

Weekends are adequately covered. Given the nature of my employer, there's always people in working as well as others providing on call services. Only the non-technical side of things runs Mon-Fri.

[rs1952]

Crafty_ said:

I don't really see what the fuss is about to be honest. If retailers want to be open, then let em open.

Abso-fecking-loutely.

I was going to edit my last post to add an anecdote, but quoting you emphasises the point

Back in the 1970s when I lived in Bristol, I got friendly with a pub manager who was "promoted" and given a tenancy by Courage Breweries. The pub he got was within a stones's throw of the old Wills tobacco factory in Bedminster (long since closed down, of course).

All his trade in his new pub came from lunchtimes (especially people coming off the 6-2 early shift) and early evening when most of the factory emptied. After about 7.30pm on weekdays, evenings on Saturdays and all day on Sundays, his takings weren't even paying his electric bill.

But he had to open. Because the licensing laws said he had to open. "Thou shalt open thine pub between 1130 and 1430, and between 1730 and 2230 Mondays to Saturdays, and between 1200 and 1400, and 1900 and 2230 on Sundays. For verily so it is written in the Licensing Laws." Amen.

So he was faced every weekday with the situation of chucking people out of his pub just after lunch on weekdays who didn't want to go, and was sitting there reading the paper with sod all else to do during the evenings and weekends. That clearly (to me) shows the stupidities of blanket regulation.

I too would not say that all shops have to open on Sundays. But if there is a market there that wants them to open, mere regulation should not be the only reason for stopping them.

[B Huey]

King Herald said:

B Huey said:

It's not that long ago when nothing opened, Pubs were only open 12-2 then from 7-10.

Ahem, it is about 25 years ago mate.

I used to do a bit of bar work in the early nineties, these hours were the norm then. IIRC things changed in about 1995.

Edited by B Huey on Monday 19th March 05:36

[jmorgan]

Easy then, make any day a normal work day but guarantee people the right for two consecutive off.

[F i F]

jmorgan said:

Easy then, make any day a normal work day but guarantee people the right for two consecutive off.

That ^^^ is exactly the way Mrs' place operates. 5 days in a row, two days off, she started when Sundays were paid a small premium and under the contract still gets that. Current starters, Sundays are just another day.

Sundays when worked as overtime i.e. covering absence, holidays etc. gets double time for everyone, it's an incentive for the employee to work on days which some may not like, it's also an incentive for the employer to get their act together with financial penalty if they don't. Some employees actively want to work on the Sunday.

Personally I avoid shopping on Sundays if I can because I hate shopping, and do it when I have to. Thus if forced to go on a Sunday one has to deal with the dawdlers out for a stroll.

In support of those who say it's one day of the week for the family to go out into the great outdoors as opposed to wandering round shops, then totally agreed. Of course, when you get to the great outdoors, or the seaside perhaps, it's a right bugger when you find the "everything is shut because it's a Sunday dilemma."

[roachcoach]

I never thought it was that big a deal, I've worked sundays before as part of my shifts when I was younger, currently in 24/7/365 operation, working/on call all last xmas - no big deal.

Any time I've worked a sunday as part of a shift there was a day off elsewhere in the week - which was just awesome for me, shops were quieter, more peace, weekend excluded deals were available (unlimited bowling for one ). It was just like a mini-holiday

I was younger then, of course, but still. Young people need work too and weekends were good times to work when I was at uni so it helps students out a lot too (they still work right? It's been a while ).


Also it rather helps with childare (ironically) I remember a few guys I worked with doing saturday, sunday, monday condensed shifts. At first I thought they were nuts, but as they pointed out - gave them almost all week with the (preschool) kids and no income impact so it made a huge change to their lives.

I think for the most part this is not that big a deal, families who want to make sure they have family time will make time for it, those that do not will not suddenly start having it by a forced day off foisted upon them.

Choice is a good thing for the most part.

Besides, I distinctly recall as a kid any day I wanted something it was invariably a bloody sunday so I couldn't get down the shops!

[wolves_wanderer]

Everyone seems to have missed that shops can open all day sunday now if they like, only big shops can't. I'd have them all closed personally. If you can't arrange a convenient time with early opening and late closing during the week then frankly, more choice is the last thing you need.