Sunday Trading Laws... Beginning of the End?

[0000]

XDA said:

Yes, 12 days in a row with no day off. Hardly a mon-fri mindset....

It's not an occasional weekend, I work a rota so do 1 in 5 weekends.

Occasional in other words.

XDA said:

Try driving 100-200 miles everyday for 12 days, as well as doing between 8-10 hours work per day for 12 days straight. Give it a go first before judging me?

I have done it and then some, not that you're judging. Sunday was still always the easiest day to go shopping, impeded by having to get there before 4pm on a day of the week when I'd usually be trying to fit other errands in like the annual car service every three months, or tyres, etc.

Not that it matters one iota - you being a bit tired from your job isn't a reason for everyone else to not benefit.

[Funk]

Getragdogleg said:

I do not need to be a consumer to be me.

I entirely agree - you should be free to not-consume on any day of the week. Conversely, you should be free to consume any day of the week should you so choose.

If you choose to go shopping on a Sunday evening, it frees up another evening in the middle of the week for you. There is no reason that Sundays should be 'special' just because other people say they should be.

Here's the crux:

No-one will make you shop on a Sunday if you don't want to. The rest of us don't wish to be dictated to as a result of religious twaddle, ta.

[Jayfish]

Another nail in the coffin for small business, we do really well on a Sunday because Tesco shuts at 4, a dip in Sundays take could be the difference between viable and not.

[vladcjelli]

Murph7355 said:

Equally, families would still be able to have "family time". To be reliant on an antiquated law to have family time is incredibly sad, no? Surely you don't need the government or the legal system to put this in place for you? Seems a bit like abdication of responsibility to me...

If you have kids in school, which days of the week should you have as a family day then?

I have always worked weekends, but since having kids, it has become less palatable. Can be a struggle to find a decent chunk of time to just be with them, rather than trying to fit them in around all the menial day to day stuff like cooking and cleaning etc.

Hardly abdication of responsibility to want to have a consistent approach to where the members of a family are on given days of the week.

If people want to work weekends, so be it, but it would be useful to give people the choice. At the moment, the only choice is to look for another job.

[F i F]

0000 said:

XDA said:

F i F said:

To my mind, people who are saying that people need a rest and therefore shouldn't be expected to work Sunday as well are in a bit of a 9-5 Mon-Fri mindset.

I disagree.

Ok.

XDA said:

B Huey said:

Surely if you work the weekend you get days off in the week.

No I don't. I end up working 12 days solid.

12 days... as in two mon-fri weeks with a weekend in the middle occasionally? Sounds like you're in a mon-fri mindset to me.

I'm quite happy that you disagree XDA, however I think that the 9-5 mindset is maybe not you but that of your employer. It seems that employees are required to work Mon-Fri with weekends being extra on a rota basis.

If the demand turns into 7 days, then the correct way to do this in my opinion is plan for it without requiring excessive hours.

In my time I've done the 12 days plus without a day off, also done the 72 hours without and rest, and nearly ended up in the hospital because of it, so understand the position well.

[markh1973]

Funk said:

I entirely agree - you should be free to not-consume on any day of the week. Conversely, you should be free to consume any day of the week should you so choose.

If you choose to go shopping on a Sunday evening, it frees up another evening in the middle of the week for you. There is no reason that Sundays should be 'special' just because other people say they should be.

Here's the crux:

No-one will make you shop on a Sunday if you don't want to. The rest of us don't wish to be dictated to as a result of religious twaddle, ta.

But because you want to consume whenever you want, someone has to be in the shop to sell you something, but as long as you want to shop then who cares about the shop staff eh......

[rs1952]

Getragdogleg said:

Dr Jekyll said:

So we think we want to do some shopping and have a quick pint on a sunday, but you know better than us and want us prevented for our own good.

Yes. People want all these things but it is not making us happy.

I don't do pub/shopping on a sunday, i spent time with family and maybe go for a drive/walk. I relax and try to forget about the rat race. Buying stuff does not make me happy. I do not need to be a consumer to be me.

And I doubt that many people would argue that what you want to do on a Sunday is fine, if that's what you want to do. Personally, I don't go shopping very much on a Sunday either, but then that's my choice too.

What I am fundamentally opposed to, and I suspect a lot of others posters on here are as well (but haven't spelt it out in so many words), is the idea that one section of society should be able to force its views on the rest of us on this matter. We should have moved on.

There are plenty of professions to whom weekend work (or indeed night work) is just part of the job. The emergency services (fire police ambulance) the NHS, the transport industry (trains buses planes boats) recreation and leisure, the list is quite long and doesn't stop there.

How would you feel turning up at A&E on a Sunday with a heart attack to be told: "sorry, our people like to spend time with their families on Sundays, so could you come back tomorrow please? (if you last that long .....)

It wasn't so long ago when Welsh pubs shut on Sundays, which meant plenty omore trade for English ones just over the border.

If you're ever down the library, have a look at the 1922 Bradshaw Railway Guide. No trains ran in Scotland on Sundays at all back then, except overnight services to and from England. That's right NO TRAINS - the "Kirk" made sure of that.

You want all that brought back too??

There are many on PH who don't like it, but the UK has signed up to the EU Working Time Directive. This restricts the number of hours that any employed person can work per week (unless they opt out voluntarily). In this context, this means that if shops are open all day on Sundays, the staff who man them will get time off at other times of the week. The "exploited staff" argument falls flat on its arse there

Even the religious argument falls flat on its arse when you consider that other countries, with perhaps more of a religious tradition than England, nevertheless don't have a problem with opening on Sunday. Scotland, I think, has already been mentioned, and then there is Ireland where the shops are open from late morning onward. Shops in Spain are often open on Sundays, whilst France is a little different. There is nothing instinsically "right" with our current system, and no good arguments for it that will stand close scrutiny.

[Dr Jekyll]

markh1973 said:

But because you want to consume whenever you want, someone has to be in the shop to sell you something, but as long as you want to shop then who cares about the shop staff eh......

No, the shop is only open because it suits them. It is perfectly legal for me to go and buy a loaf at 2 oclock on wednesday morning, I don't see anyone demanding this should be banned on the basis that shop staff don't get any sleep.

[Murph7355]

Getragdogleg said:

stuff

Mojooo said:

similar stuff

At present the only thing being *forced* on anyone is that you can't go and buy some shelves at B&Q at 6pm on a Sunday (for example).

No one will be forced to do anything. You'll have choices to make. Employers will have choices to make. But no one will be forced to do anything.

As it stands, the shops are open to a point anyway. If I could have been arsed getting out of my trackie bottoms and rugby shirt, watching the GP and generally having a slow day I could have pottered off down to the shops and bought my shelves. But I elected to have a slow day despite the shops being open.

Equally, my other half's off next week. If I want to spend some time with her I can take a day or two off. If my job depends on not doing that I can make a choice.

Is there any empirical evidence that removing the law will result in every outlet being open and people being forced at gun point to work Sundays? As an example, since licensing laws changed, how much real world change happened in employment patterns in that industry?

Or do we simply have another example of an outmoded law clogging up the rule book preventing people operating as they choose?

[Dixie68]

markh1973 said:

Funk said:

I entirely agree - you should be free to not-consume on any day of the week. Conversely, you should be free to consume any day of the week should you so choose.

If you choose to go shopping on a Sunday evening, it frees up another evening in the middle of the week for you. There is no reason that Sundays should be 'special' just because other people say they should be.

Here's the crux:

No-one will make you shop on a Sunday if you don't want to. The rest of us don't wish to be dictated to as a result of religious twaddle, ta.

But because you want to consume whenever you want, someone has to be in the shop to sell you something, but as long as you want to shop then who cares about the shop staff eh......

As has been said before: what makes the Retail sector special? If other sectors such as mine, engineering, have no problem with it, (and indeed have been working weekends for decades), why shouldn't it apply to those in shops also?

[Getragdogleg]

The point i am making is that once all the days become the same then we will have the same traffic and the same crowds, the days will all be the same. we might as well abandon the names for the days while we are at it.

What about Christmas? fk it, just open all the shops up all year round and all the pubs too, why bother closing ?

We need a day of rest to keep us sane and show us we are not just alive to work or spend money in some shop while some other poor sod works.

[rs1952]

Getragdogleg said:

The point i am making is that once all the days become the same then we will have the same traffic and the same crowds, the days will all be the same. we might as well abandon the names for the days while we are at it.

What about Christmas? fk it, just open all the shops up all year round and all the pubs too, why bother closing ?

We need a day of rest to keep us sane and show us we are not just alive to work or spend money in some shop while some other poor sod works.

rs1952 said:

There are plenty of professions to whom weekend work (or indeed night work) is just part of the job. The emergency services (fire police ambulance) the NHS, the transport industry (trains buses planes boats) recreation and leisure, the list is quite long and doesn't stop there.

How would you feel turning up at A&E on a Sunday with a heart attack to be told: "sorry, our people like to spend time with their families on Sundays, so could you come back tomorrow please? (if you last that long .....)

[Murph7355]

Getragdogleg said:

The point i am making is that once all the days become the same then we will have the same traffic and the same crowds, the days will all be the same. we might as well abandon the names for the days while we are at it.

What about Christmas? fk it, just open all the shops up all year round and all the pubs too, why bother closing ?

We need a day of rest to keep us sane and show us we are not just alive to work or spend money in some shop while some other poor sod works.

Maybe we'd have less traffic each day as it'll be spread over more days?

My point is that if *you* need that day of rest then that's fine, take one. Pick one. Any one.

But if *I* don't feel such a need, then why should your need preclude that? Who are you to judge that I need a day of rest? And what else would you like to be able to interfere with

(btw, I have no intention of working 7 days a week, though in the past have had to work many weeks this way).

Ref Christmas, ultimately I tend to agree. Though as holidays like Christmas don't happen every week it's slightly different. But if some people don't want to have that time off, why force them to? Why not let them take a couple of days over an occasion that's special to them?

[jmorgan]

Bit of a difference between a and e and Tescos.I would rather there are definite checks on employers. I work weekends as a normal day however I have time off in the week. As long there is some such built in for ordinary people, after all employers will never try to swing the lead.

But I do favour the weekend as it stands.

[King Herald]

B Huey said:

It's not that long ago when nothing opened, Pubs where only open 12-2 then from 7-10.

Ahem, it is about 25 years ago mate.

[rs1952]

King Herald said:

B Huey said:

It's not that long ago when nothing opened, Pubs where only open 12-2 then from 7-10.

Ahem, it is about 25 years ago mate.

Erm .....

The boozer I will be going to at about 9.30 tonight has the following opening hours:

Monday - Friday 7pm - 11pm
Saturday 12 noon - 2.30pm, 7pm - 11pm
Sunday 12 noon - 2.30pm, 7pm - 10.30pm

[MKnight702]

I'll go against the trend on this one. I think Sundays should be complete shutdown for shops and supermarkets. Not because of any religous convictions but just to make one day in the week a family orientated day.

One of the things that most Brits like about to France is the pace of life, this is contributed to especially at the weekend by Sunday shutdowns (although they are changing too, unfortunately). Having every day exactly like the rest means that no day is "special" whereas one day a week when nothing is open means that you have to find something else to fill the time rather than drag the kids to the supermarket or garden centre. Yes it's not as convenient but you know what, people can plan ahead, buy tomorrows groceries today, stock up on compost for doing the garden, and actually spend time with their family. Doing nothing once a week is a heck of a way to recharge the batteries when compared to a mad dash to the shopping centre, fighting your way round the Next sale dragging the reluctant kids behind you.

[vonuber]

Why not scrap the mon-fri working week, and have staggered working where people could do weds to sun instead if they chose?

[Funk]

Dixie68 said:

markh1973 said:

Funk said:

I entirely agree - you should be free to not-consume on any day of the week. Conversely, you should be free to consume any day of the week should you so choose.

If you choose to go shopping on a Sunday evening, it frees up another evening in the middle of the week for you. There is no reason that Sundays should be 'special' just because other people say they should be.

Here's the crux:

No-one will make you shop on a Sunday if you don't want to. The rest of us don't wish to be dictated to as a result of religious twaddle, ta.

But because you want to consume whenever you want, someone has to be in the shop to sell you something, but as long as you want to shop then who cares about the shop staff eh......

As has been said before: what makes the Retail sector special? If other sectors such as mine, engineering, have no problem with it, (and indeed have been working weekends for decades), why shouldn't it apply to those in shops also?

Indeed. Not to mention that there are probably lots of people out there who would like to be able to increase their hours (esp. part-timers). It should be treated like any other day of the week imo.

[Murph7355]

rs1952 said:

Erm .....

The boozer I will be going to at about 9.30 tonight has the following opening hours:

Monday - Friday 7pm - 11pm
Saturday 12 noon - 2.30pm, 7pm - 11pm
Sunday 12 noon - 2.30pm, 7pm - 10.30pm

There's nothing to prevent them opening longer hours though...which is how it should be.