Cameron wants to privatise roads (again)
Discussion
Puggit said:
RichyBoy said:
I'd rather they make proper spending reductions in the public sector and then proportionally increase spending on infrastructure, but no one seems to be want this. They inherited an economy where something like 5% of bank lending goes towards productive purposes, it would make sense to divert a significant amount of spending from the public sector to infrastructure spending.
I'd vote for that party...The Hitman said:
So remind me again why we pay road tax? It's meant to run the road network.
The reason for conjestion is too much traffic trying to use too little space. If you want to tackle conjestion, you need to invest and expand the road network. Privatisation is the opposite if history is anything to go by, what they would do is charge for using it and not invest in it's up keep as much as is needed as it would eat into their profits so it would fall into disrepair. That is exactly the same as all of the publicly owned ventures that were privatised by the Tories.
They mention it could be set up like the water companies are, tell me, how well are the water companies run? Seeing as the drought we are facing at the moment is because of leaks in the system.
They should prove privatisation works before doing anything else, but they can't becase it doesn't. It just makes a few business owners very welthy by charging the public to use what they already paid for.
What road tax do you pay?The reason for conjestion is too much traffic trying to use too little space. If you want to tackle conjestion, you need to invest and expand the road network. Privatisation is the opposite if history is anything to go by, what they would do is charge for using it and not invest in it's up keep as much as is needed as it would eat into their profits so it would fall into disrepair. That is exactly the same as all of the publicly owned ventures that were privatised by the Tories.
They mention it could be set up like the water companies are, tell me, how well are the water companies run? Seeing as the drought we are facing at the moment is because of leaks in the system.
They should prove privatisation works before doing anything else, but they can't becase it doesn't. It just makes a few business owners very welthy by charging the public to use what they already paid for.
I pay for Vehicle Excise Duty on my cars. Some people have VED but pay nothing for it.
I'm not sure where raod tax comes into it at all.
I travel over 30k miles per year on our motorway network and it's not good.
I like the M6 toll as it's nice clear due to the outragous £5.50 they want for a car to travel on it, but that's why I like it because it keeps it clear.
The toll at the dartford crossing is an absolute farce and causes far too much traffic congestion.
So we have toll roads that aren't congested and toll roads that are, the difference being there isn't a direct alternative to the dartford crossing, where there is a choice i.e M6 then they seem to work.
So we a need a "shadow" network of motorways to share the traffic volume, those that are able and willing to pay will and those that can't or won't will still feel the benefit as the traffic migrates.
What am I missing?
Kwasi Kwarteng, MP (Cons) for Spelthorne, Surrey was just on R4's WATO. Seems there's a thrust to charge motorists for road as we can't just used roads 'willy nilly' once we've paid our insurance. Martha Kearney, said 'Don't motorists already pay to use the roads by VED', he replied yes, and made some comment how it benefits nobody if our roads fall into disrepair.
The Hitman said:
So remind me again why we pay road tax? It's meant to run the road network.
The reason for conjestion is too much traffic trying to use too little space. If you want to tackle conjestion, you need to invest and expand the road network. Privatisation is the opposite if history is anything to go by, what they would do is charge for using it and not invest in it's up keep as much as is needed as it would eat into their profits so it would fall into disrepair. That is exactly the same as all of the publicly owned ventures that were privatised by the Tories.
They mention it could be set up like the water companies are, tell me, how well are the water companies run? Seeing as the drought we are facing at the moment is because of leaks in the system.
They should prove privatisation works before doing anything else, but they can't becase it doesn't. It just makes a few business owners very welthy by charging the public to use what they already paid for.
Couldn't have put that any better myself so just going to say good shout. The reason for conjestion is too much traffic trying to use too little space. If you want to tackle conjestion, you need to invest and expand the road network. Privatisation is the opposite if history is anything to go by, what they would do is charge for using it and not invest in it's up keep as much as is needed as it would eat into their profits so it would fall into disrepair. That is exactly the same as all of the publicly owned ventures that were privatised by the Tories.
They mention it could be set up like the water companies are, tell me, how well are the water companies run? Seeing as the drought we are facing at the moment is because of leaks in the system.
They should prove privatisation works before doing anything else, but they can't becase it doesn't. It just makes a few business owners very welthy by charging the public to use what they already paid for.
Wills2 said:
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The toll at the dartford crossing is an absolute farce and causes far too much traffic congestion.
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Is it true that Dartford was paid for in less than 3 years through toll costs and was going to stop once paid for. The toll at the dartford crossing is an absolute farce and causes far too much traffic congestion.
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BUT due to being such a great money maker for both Kent and Essex County Councils they decided to keep it going.
I know I'm being naieve, but why not earmark VED and fuel tax for the roads, that way those of us that use them, are actually paying for them?
As a generalisation, I'm not against toll roads, what I don't like, is knowing our government (whatever colour they be) will royally screw this up, as they have with any other 'privatisation' there has been.
And could we have a guarentee that any surplus is ploughed back into our country and not siphoned off to other countries (as seems to happen with the power and water)
As a generalisation, I'm not against toll roads, what I don't like, is knowing our government (whatever colour they be) will royally screw this up, as they have with any other 'privatisation' there has been.
And could we have a guarentee that any surplus is ploughed back into our country and not siphoned off to other countries (as seems to happen with the power and water)
'PRIVATISED ROADS: A BACK DOOR FOR ROAD PRICING?'
Yes.
I get the impression from Kwasi Kwarteng's interview on WATO is that we're to be expected to pay for our use of the roads.
So those using the High Speed rail link to Birmingham will be paying for that will they?
Just use the tax take from the motorists to pay for the roads and let the PFIers and soveriegn state funds pay for the High Speed rail link, instead of every taxpayer paying for it.
Yes.
I get the impression from Kwasi Kwarteng's interview on WATO is that we're to be expected to pay for our use of the roads.
So those using the High Speed rail link to Birmingham will be paying for that will they?
Just use the tax take from the motorists to pay for the roads and let the PFIers and soveriegn state funds pay for the High Speed rail link, instead of every taxpayer paying for it.
Economics. Trunk roads and Motorways bring in an INCOME to the government of £200,000/km. Railways cost the Government £150,000/km. Motorist Tax income to the Government is circa £45bn/yr. Any idea where it goes? Water, a 'perfect' privitisation example. Bills go up. Water supply goes down. 1000x's more water falls on the UK than we use. No water 'shortage', just a lack of storage. They don't invest in water management, it could easily be piped from Scotland which has a surplus, but the various companies won't a: Invest, it's easier to restrict supplies by charging more, & b: Agree who would pay what share. I won't mention the railways. Or Gas and Electric. Or the DVLA.
I'm all for privatised motorways if it removes the idiotic local council level of civil servants from most of decisions because that is where taxes are wasted at not just for roads but everything.
If they privatised roads someone ultimately would be accountable for failings in saftey, running, location of routes, upkeep and staff to operate it unlike currently method of passing the buck to another civil department until its lost in the system.
If they privatised roads someone ultimately would be accountable for failings in saftey, running, location of routes, upkeep and staff to operate it unlike currently method of passing the buck to another civil department until its lost in the system.
Wills2 said:
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The toll at the dartford crossing is an absolute farce and causes far too much traffic congestion.
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Wrong. Both councils have been lobbying the Government for years to dump the toll. At least we'll soon have a nice £11bn new 4 lane M25 to sit the traffic jam while we queue up for the toll booths !!!! Couldn't make it up if you tried.
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The toll at the dartford crossing is an absolute farce and causes far too much traffic congestion.
...
Wrong. Both councils have been lobbying the Government for years to dump the toll. At least we'll soon have a nice £11bn new 4 lane M25 to sit the traffic jam while we queue up for the toll booths !!!! Couldn't make it up if you tried.
What I can't understand about most of the responses here is this: The existing road network is s
t. It's falling apart, congested to death and the Highways Agency are clearly completely incapable of carrying out even the most basic repairs without causing complete mayhem for weeks (minor pothole), months (several potholes) or years (anything involving a motorway).
I can't see how the private sector could possibly do any worse. And, given sensible regulations (yeah, I know, I know) and reasonable targets (I know * 2), there's no reason why private sector involvement shouldn't massively improve the road system.
Sadly, thanks - again - to public sector (specifically, the civil service) incompetence, the rules will be badly written, badly implemented, and a disaster for all concerned.
t. It's falling apart, congested to death and the Highways Agency are clearly completely incapable of carrying out even the most basic repairs without causing complete mayhem for weeks (minor pothole), months (several potholes) or years (anything involving a motorway).I can't see how the private sector could possibly do any worse. And, given sensible regulations (yeah, I know, I know) and reasonable targets (I know * 2), there's no reason why private sector involvement shouldn't massively improve the road system.
Sadly, thanks - again - to public sector (specifically, the civil service) incompetence, the rules will be badly written, badly implemented, and a disaster for all concerned.
For years we (and I count the majority of the EU as well as the US in "we") have been living in this financial fairyland where money could be wished into existence by just writing a number on a balance sheet. All of a sudden we were forced to face the fact tht vast ammounts of that money simply didn't exist... unfortunately we'd already spent it.
I don't see how privitisation changes the fact that we don't have any money. The government is more or less bankrupt. "There's no more money, sorry." I mean, how much clearer could that be? Yes, the road network needs investment, but investment costs money and we don't have it. We're still not going to have it if we farm road management out to the private sector. It's not like there's a massive surplace of cash just sloshing around in the general public's wallets that they'd gladly hand over to a private company get this sorted out.
The only thing that this could achieve is to price people off the roads, and since it's already been pointed out that poor mobility of goods and people is bad for the economy, that's really not going to help is it?
I don't see how privitisation changes the fact that we don't have any money. The government is more or less bankrupt. "There's no more money, sorry." I mean, how much clearer could that be? Yes, the road network needs investment, but investment costs money and we don't have it. We're still not going to have it if we farm road management out to the private sector. It's not like there's a massive surplace of cash just sloshing around in the general public's wallets that they'd gladly hand over to a private company get this sorted out.
The only thing that this could achieve is to price people off the roads, and since it's already been pointed out that poor mobility of goods and people is bad for the economy, that's really not going to help is it?
Morningside said:
Wills2 said:
...
The toll at the dartford crossing is an absolute farce and causes far too much traffic congestion.
...
Is it true that Dartford was paid for in less than 3 years through toll costs and was going to stop once paid for. The toll at the dartford crossing is an absolute farce and causes far too much traffic congestion.
...
BUT due to being such a great money maker for both Kent and Essex County Councils they decided to keep it going.
AdeV said:
What I can't understand about most of the responses here is this: The existing road network is st. It's falling apart, congested to death and the Highways Agency are clearly completely incapable of carrying out even the most basic repairs without causing complete mayhem for weeks (minor pothole), months (several potholes) or years (anything involving a motorway).
I can't see how the private sector could possibly do any worse. And, given sensible regulations (yeah, I know, I know) and reasonable targets (I know * 2), there's no reason why private sector involvement shouldn't massively improve the road system.
Sadly, thanks - again - to public sector (specifically, the civil service) incompetence, the rules will be badly written, badly implemented, and a disaster for all concerned.
Erm interesting view point, but i would like to point out that MOST roadworks on trunk roads are due to private companies ie the utilities, digging them up and poorly patching them up afterwards. You should see the complete abortion the water company have made of the road in Worcester Park. No doubt it will end up being fixed by the council only to be dug up again by another utility company and again poorly finished. t. It's falling apart, congested to death and the Highways Agency are clearly completely incapable of carrying out even the most basic repairs without causing complete mayhem for weeks (minor pothole), months (several potholes) or years (anything involving a motorway).I can't see how the private sector could possibly do any worse. And, given sensible regulations (yeah, I know, I know) and reasonable targets (I know * 2), there's no reason why private sector involvement shouldn't massively improve the road system.
Sadly, thanks - again - to public sector (specifically, the civil service) incompetence, the rules will be badly written, badly implemented, and a disaster for all concerned.
Motorways, again most of the contractors that do the actual fixing are private companies. The highways agency manage the road infrastructure.
But hey, why waste an opportunity to bash the public sector huh?
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