Discussion
Pilsner said:
The fact of the matter is that these people want to stay in the UK, but don't want to contribute
Even if there was a flat tax rate of 20% there would still be people trying to avoid it.
I suspect for many that it's almost a competition. The absolute ammount of money some people take home can't really be that much of an issue. Your not talking about the 50p tax rate causing people to have to switch from Waitrose to Asda are you.
These people have more than enough money for it not to really be a worry. I bet no one paying the 50% rate ever had to worry if they could afford to pay the heating bill.
The only thing I can think is that it's 'the prinicple of the thing' and as it takes a very competetive mind to get that far up the greasy pole in the first place, it's probably a much greater aspect of their nature than more other people.
Randy Winkman said:
Murph7355 said:
Trouble is, there are significantly more "plebs" of voting age than there are "rich" people, and politicians need volume of votes. They are *always* going to pander to the plebs until we go bust.
Trying to keep the majority happy - what a mad idea.If politicians looked after wealth creators with the same missionary zeal they apply to 'victims of society'
there would be far more likelihood of enough tax revenue to allow lower levels of tax theft from those wealth creators while still keeping the bleeding hearts drip free and all the lefties and hippies happy with half decent handouts by way of social protection (great phrase I'm lovin it).If A is dependent on B and B is f
ked then both B and A are fked. So take care of B and you can forget about A, though not in every way, only in terms of having money to pay for A without mortgaging the taxes of a future generation having spunked hundreds of £billions in loans already. Rocket science it is not. Socialism it definitely isn't.Wealth creators feed and clothe everyone including and in particular those dependent on benefits and there is no alternative to putting wealth creators' needs first no matter how subjectively untouchy or unfeely it seems. The government does not take care of anyone as they don't have a money tree and depend on people who create jobs and wealth.
There is a flat rate 20% tax. It's called VAT. There can be VERY few people in UK who one or another don't pay at least 20% to the government in VAT, fuel duty, alcohol duty, tobacco duty, gambling duty, etc etc.
Osborne increases the tax free band saving prople from paying some 20% tax. They go out and spent the money and he pockets 20%. Brilliant!!
(Yes I realise they were previously paying their VAT out of slightly taxed income but you get the general point.)
Osborne increases the tax free band saving prople from paying some 20% tax. They go out and spent the money and he pockets 20%. Brilliant!!
(Yes I realise they were previously paying their VAT out of slightly taxed income but you get the general point.)
Today's Mail claims that The Boy George has discovered the real name of his Coalition Partners and informed Nick Clegg of this in a conference call.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2119948/Os...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2119948/Os...
Devil2575 said:
Even if there was a flat tax rate of 20% there would still be people trying to avoid it.
I suspect for many that it's almost a competition. The absolute ammount of money some people take home can't really be that much of an issue. Your not talking about the 50p tax rate causing people to have to switch from Waitrose to Asda are you.
These people have more than enough money for it not to really be a worry. I bet no one paying the 50% rate ever had to worry if they could afford to pay the heating bill.
The only thing I can think is that it's 'the prinicple of the thing' and as it takes a very competetive mind to get that far up the greasy pole in the first place, it's probably a much greater aspect of their nature than more other people.
For all your bleeding-heart pseudo arguments, the bottom line is that it's their money, and their money alone. They've worked hard for it. It doesn't matter whether or not they can afford a million weekly shopping trips to Waitrose.
As for why, well, try working your absolute balls off, do 16 hour days in the office, endure stress levels fifty times higher than you've ever experienced ever before... daily. Try exhausting yourself mentally and physically every single day. Try starting out with absolutely f
k all to your name, and build your account up with your bare hands, coupled with a fair share of blood, sweat and tears. That is the life of a trader, and let me tell you, it fking hurts living in the knowledge that after all that, that million you made isn't actually a million. After costs and taxes, you're lucky to take out a third of it. And THAT is why the rich people of this contry don't want to contribute.
Pilsner said:
Devil2575 said:
Even if there was a flat tax rate of 20% there would still be people trying to avoid it.
I suspect for many that it's almost a competition. The absolute ammount of money some people take home can't really be that much of an issue. Your not talking about the 50p tax rate causing people to have to switch from Waitrose to Asda are you.
These people have more than enough money for it not to really be a worry. I bet no one paying the 50% rate ever had to worry if they could afford to pay the heating bill.
The only thing I can think is that it's 'the prinicple of the thing' and as it takes a very competetive mind to get that far up the greasy pole in the first place, it's probably a much greater aspect of their nature than more other people.
For all your bleeding-heart pseudo arguments, the bottom line is that it's their money, and their money alone. They've worked hard for it. It doesn't matter whether or not they can afford a million weekly shopping trips to Waitrose.
As for why, well, try working your absolute balls off, do 16 hour days in the office, endure stress levels fifty times higher than you've ever experienced ever before... daily. Try exhausting yourself mentally and physically every single day. Try starting out with absolutely f
k all to your name, and build your account up with your bare hands, coupled with a fair share of blood, sweat and tears. That is the life of a trader, and let me tell you, it fking hurts living in the knowledge that after all that, that million you made isn't actually a million. After costs and taxes, you're lucky to take out a third of it. And THAT is why the rich people of this contry don't want to contribute.
But just like the miner and soldier, traders know beforehand what the tax system and their job has in store for them, no ones forces any of us to do any of the jobs we do.
Yes the higher your earnings the more it bites I look at my tax bill and weep and I'm not even a 50% tax payer, but I think the bleeding heart rants about how hard life is as a trader miss the mark somewhat.
Sounds like you were successful, so enjoy....
Ozzie Osmond said:
There is a flat rate 20% tax. It's called VAT. There can be VERY few people in UK who one or another don't pay at least 20% to the government in VAT, fuel duty, alcohol duty, tobacco duty, gambling duty, etc etc.
Osborne increases the tax free band saving prople from paying some 20% tax. They go out and spent the money and he pockets 20%. Brilliant!!
(Yes I realise they were previously paying their VAT out of slightly taxed income but you get the general point.)
There's no VAT on rent or mortgage repayments or groceries last time I looked.Osborne increases the tax free band saving prople from paying some 20% tax. They go out and spent the money and he pockets 20%. Brilliant!!
(Yes I realise they were previously paying their VAT out of slightly taxed income but you get the general point.)
chris watton said:
Johnnytheboy said:
thinfourth2 said:
As a stupid person could someone please explain something to me
This is advertised as a budget for the rich only
I earn £31K a year before tax
According to budget calculators i am about £250 a year better off
This means i must be a rich person as i am better off
So where the fk is my fking Ferrari you evil tory bds
I earn less than you and I appear to be better off too, and yet apparently I'm "paying for tax cuts for the rich" somehow. This is advertised as a budget for the rich only
I earn £31K a year before tax
According to budget calculators i am about £250 a year better off
This means i must be a rich person as i am better off
So where the f
k is my fking Ferrari you evil tory bdsk the plebs..... 
You make me sick
Wills2 said:
To be fair Pilsner, lots and lots of people work hard and do long hours some even risk their lives on a daily basis and suffer much greater mental stress than traders do. (I'm not saying it isn't a stressful job)
But just like the miner and soldier, traders know beforehand what the tax system and their job has in store for them, no ones forces any of us to do any of the jobs we do.
Yes the higher your earnings the more it bites I look at my tax bill and weep and I'm not even a 50% tax payer, but I think the bleeding heart rants about how hard life is as a trader miss the mark somewhat.
Sounds like you were successful, so enjoy....
I used trading as an example because it's topical, and because I know it well. It wasn't a bleeding-heart plea for sympathy, it was an illustration for why many people in the upper echelons of the income bracket don't want to pay excessive taxes. It can be equally applied to any entrepreneur, CEO or high-flying City banker. Society, as it stands, relies on them forking it out.But just like the miner and soldier, traders know beforehand what the tax system and their job has in store for them, no ones forces any of us to do any of the jobs we do.
Yes the higher your earnings the more it bites I look at my tax bill and weep and I'm not even a 50% tax payer, but I think the bleeding heart rants about how hard life is as a trader miss the mark somewhat.
Sounds like you were successful, so enjoy....
Nor was it in a condescending tone to miners or soldiers, but frankly, the discussion isn't about them.
Pilsner said:
Wills2 said:
To be fair Pilsner, lots and lots of people work hard and do long hours some even risk their lives on a daily basis and suffer much greater mental stress than traders do. (I'm not saying it isn't a stressful job)
But just like the miner and soldier, traders know beforehand what the tax system and their job has in store for them, no ones forces any of us to do any of the jobs we do.
Yes the higher your earnings the more it bites I look at my tax bill and weep and I'm not even a 50% tax payer, but I think the bleeding heart rants about how hard life is as a trader miss the mark somewhat.
Sounds like you were successful, so enjoy....
I used trading as an example because it's topical, and because I know it well. It wasn't a bleeding-heart plea for sympathy, it was an illustration for why many people in the upper echelons of the income bracket don't want to pay excessive taxes. It can be equally applied to any entrepreneur, CEO or high-flying City banker. Society, as it stands, relies on them forking it out.But just like the miner and soldier, traders know beforehand what the tax system and their job has in store for them, no ones forces any of us to do any of the jobs we do.
Yes the higher your earnings the more it bites I look at my tax bill and weep and I'm not even a 50% tax payer, but I think the bleeding heart rants about how hard life is as a trader miss the mark somewhat.
Sounds like you were successful, so enjoy....
Nor was it in a condescending tone to miners or soldiers, but frankly, the discussion isn't about them.
I beleive that the spoils should go to the victor (within reason) and yes successive governments of whatever colour have and continue to take too much and then waste it.
Pointing out that you worked hard therefore you should keep it could be applied to any profession and then where would we be?
Anyways bygones, and here's to making a few quid and hopefully being able to keep some of it!
turbobloke said:
"Why should someone be exempt from paying their fair share of taxation because they are rich?"
Good question - nobody should. Within legal tax avoidance schemes, a lawful share is paid, and those on higher salaries already pay an unfair larger share as there is no flat rate of income tax in the UK.
Is there any country that employs the flat rate system?Good question - nobody should. Within legal tax avoidance schemes, a lawful share is paid, and those on higher salaries already pay an unfair larger share as there is no flat rate of income tax in the UK.
Wills2 said:
But if your justification is that they "work hard and are stressed" which it appeared to be, then that isn't a valid argument hence my example of other professions where you can expect to "work hard and be stressed".
I beleive that the spoils should go to the victor (within reason) and yes successive governments of whatever colour have and continue to take too much and then waste it.
Pointing out that you worked hard therefore you should keep it could be applied to any profession and then where would we be?
Anyways bygones, and here's to making a few quid and hopefully being able to keep some of it!
Absolutely. I'm all for a flat tax rate, as I've repeatedly pointed out (in fact, I think we'd do well with no tax what so ever, but that's another discussion). Whether your income is £5k or £5M a year, your money is rightfully yours and yours alone. That's not the point however. The point is that those on £5M and above are de facto pillars of society. Of course, the argument can be made that miners and soldiers too are valid pillars of society, but... who pays for the miner to have a mine to work in? And who pays for the soldier's army? I beleive that the spoils should go to the victor (within reason) and yes successive governments of whatever colour have and continue to take too much and then waste it.
Pointing out that you worked hard therefore you should keep it could be applied to any profession and then where would we be?
Anyways bygones, and here's to making a few quid and hopefully being able to keep some of it!
I'm simply trying to explain why rich people avoid tax. And not even rich people to be honest, just anyone who works hard for their living. Some people in this thread seem to lack an understanding for what it means to work hard, and hence have no qualms or issues freely spending the hard earned fruits of others.
WEHGuy said:
turbobloke said:
"Why should someone be exempt from paying their fair share of taxation because they are rich?"
Good question - nobody should. Within legal tax avoidance schemes, a lawful share is paid, and those on higher salaries already pay an unfair larger share as there is no flat rate of income tax in the UK.
Is there any country that employs the flat rate system?Good question - nobody should. Within legal tax avoidance schemes, a lawful share is paid, and those on higher salaries already pay an unfair larger share as there is no flat rate of income tax in the UK.
http://flattaxes.blogspot.co.uk/2008/11/flat-and-f...
I don't think you can get away with 0% tax - I assume you think maybe it should be all loaded on consumption taxes maybe?
The issue (for me) is the SIZE of the take. I think UK gov take about 40% of GDP every year in tax. That is just too big.
They are trying to do too many things and mission creep over the last few decades means that the NHS, welfare, education is all suffering by trying to spread limited resources too thin across too many objectives.
A government should be there to provide a framework for business and society to thrive, grow and succeed. Business needs a healthy, successful society and vice versa.
This means government providing law & order, power, water, transport and communication infrastructure, healthcare, education and defence and social welfare as a safety net for those who need it.
The waste on translation services, IT systems that don't work, military procurement....is shocking.
Not sure why a country of just 60 million needs quite so much spending on it.
The issue (for me) is the SIZE of the take. I think UK gov take about 40% of GDP every year in tax. That is just too big.
They are trying to do too many things and mission creep over the last few decades means that the NHS, welfare, education is all suffering by trying to spread limited resources too thin across too many objectives.
A government should be there to provide a framework for business and society to thrive, grow and succeed. Business needs a healthy, successful society and vice versa.
This means government providing law & order, power, water, transport and communication infrastructure, healthcare, education and defence and social welfare as a safety net for those who need it.
The waste on translation services, IT systems that don't work, military procurement....is shocking.
Not sure why a country of just 60 million needs quite so much spending on it.
crankedup said:
johnfm said:
More than 1m clinical staff in the NHS now. Anyone would think we are an exceedingly sick nation. 1 clinician for every 60 people!
Reading about some in here go on about hard work and stress, blood and sweat its hardly surprising the hospitals are full of clinicians. 
Then there's the medicine
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