Discussion
crankedup said:
johnfm said:
I would like to see the NHS there to help sick people. A&E, diseases - that sort of thing.
I would also like to see a compulsory medical insurance system - on a sliding scale. Starting at something derisory like £2/week for everyone (including children). That would raise £6b (just 6% of the NHS budget, sadly) and should exist just to remind everybody that it isn't 'free'. Smokers: cigarette pricing should include an extra 50p/pack strictly designated for 'health insurance'.
The NHS should seriously look at defining what 'sickness' is. Sports injuries and obesity are not sicknesses. You should take out extra insurance if you play contact (or any other) sports and then expect ££££ of treatment when you break a leg or do a MCL. Similalry, if you eat your way to 25st, why should a tax funded healthcare service be at your beck and call?
Every GP visit should be charged - £5. IF you need a prescription, this £5 could be credited off the £7.80 or whatever it is now. This measly £5 may prevent some of the timewasters.
Higher levels of insurance should be tax deductible to some degree to reflect a lesser burden on the NHS resources to those using it.
The problem with any insurance based system (which really would be the best - a pool of 60 million insuring against illness) - is that insurance service companies will take the piss (like car insurance repairers who charge ££££ for repairing a wing mirror, and a courtesy car for a tiny incident). This is one of the main shortcomings if the US system - where there are masses of premiums pais, but poor outcomes - but lots of well paid drug reps, consultants etc.
It is FUBAR.
A system of insurance for health as used in the States, if you cannot afford it your on your own pal. No thanks, and I would say this is the biggest problem facing the Government outside of the budget thing, peoples perceptions.I would also like to see a compulsory medical insurance system - on a sliding scale. Starting at something derisory like £2/week for everyone (including children). That would raise £6b (just 6% of the NHS budget, sadly) and should exist just to remind everybody that it isn't 'free'. Smokers: cigarette pricing should include an extra 50p/pack strictly designated for 'health insurance'.
The NHS should seriously look at defining what 'sickness' is. Sports injuries and obesity are not sicknesses. You should take out extra insurance if you play contact (or any other) sports and then expect ££££ of treatment when you break a leg or do a MCL. Similalry, if you eat your way to 25st, why should a tax funded healthcare service be at your beck and call?
Every GP visit should be charged - £5. IF you need a prescription, this £5 could be credited off the £7.80 or whatever it is now. This measly £5 may prevent some of the timewasters.
Higher levels of insurance should be tax deductible to some degree to reflect a lesser burden on the NHS resources to those using it.
The problem with any insurance based system (which really would be the best - a pool of 60 million insuring against illness) - is that insurance service companies will take the piss (like car insurance repairers who charge ££££ for repairing a wing mirror, and a courtesy car for a tiny incident). This is one of the main shortcomings if the US system - where there are masses of premiums pais, but poor outcomes - but lots of well paid drug reps, consultants etc.
It is FUBAR.
BASIC health insurance becomes compulsory. Like motor insurance. If it is (ie lots of people take it), costs will be manageable.
As I said, the problems then relate to profiteering. You cannot have a state run insurance system. But the private sector will f
k it up too, just as they have pretty much fked up car insurance.In any event, the system will eventually break and force a change.
Just jumping in with a few point here, NHS is funded by the duty on cigarettes and tobacco products to the tune of 8 billion plus per year which is why they won't ban smoking as the NHS would crash. The utilities were privatised by the previous con servative government, we will have hose pipe bans in the UK later this year imposed by water companies who have spent less than £1 per household per year on infrastructure over the last 20 years, 20% of all water supplied is lost through pipe leakages. What will happen if they privatise the NHS, pockets will be lined, the well off stay healthy and the less well off die!
Fuel duty going up by 3p in August let me do some math here, USA currently pay around 65P per litre at the pump for premium fuel we are paying £1.44+. That's taking into account 3.78 Litres per US gallon not the 4.55 per UK gallon. Even allowing for the ridiculous tax we pay, the numbers don't add up the fuel base price cannot be that much greater in the UK than the USA so where is the real money going? They pay around £2.95 and we pay £6.50+
Fuel duty going up by 3p in August let me do some math here, USA currently pay around 65P per litre at the pump for premium fuel we are paying £1.44+. That's taking into account 3.78 Litres per US gallon not the 4.55 per UK gallon. Even allowing for the ridiculous tax we pay, the numbers don't add up the fuel base price cannot be that much greater in the UK than the USA so where is the real money going? They pay around £2.95 and we pay £6.50+
geordie5858 said:
Fuel duty going up by 3p in August let me do some math here, USA currently pay around 65P per litre at the pump for premium fuel we are paying £1.44+. That's taking into account 3.78 Litres per US gallon not the 4.55 per UK gallon. Even allowing for the ridiculous tax we pay, the numbers don't add up the fuel base price cannot be that much greater in the UK than the USA so where is the real money going? They pay around £2.95 and we pay £6.50+
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_tax#United_KingdomAs of March last year the TAX on fuel was nearly 58p, + 65p per liter actual cost in US = £1.23, plus VAT at 20% actually makes it £1.48. Meaning if you get it for £1.44 the "base" is cheaper than US fuel.
geordie5858 said:
The utilities were privatised by the previous con servative government, we will have hose pipe bans in the UK later this year imposed by water companies who have spent less than £1 per household per year on infrastructure over the last 20 years, 20% of all water supplied is lost through pipe leakages.
That always happens with privatisation, the temptation to slash costs is just too great.speedy_thrills said:
geordie5858 said:
The utilities were privatised by the previous con servative government, we will have hose pipe bans in the UK later this year imposed by water companies who have spent less than £1 per household per year on infrastructure over the last 20 years, 20% of all water supplied is lost through pipe leakages.
That always happens with privatisation, the temptation to slash costs is just too great.While a national water grid remains a pipe dream (pun intended) not least due to a double whammy from the last government having wasted most of our money from the boom years and the currently ridiculous price of energy which is at least 20% too high due to climate myths, there is some transfer of water within provider areas and across boundaries and this needs extending.
AJS- said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_tax#United_Kingd...
As of March last year the TAX on fuel was nearly 58p, + 65p per liter actual cost in US = £1.23, plus VAT at 20% actually makes it £1.48. Meaning if you get it for £1.44 the "base" is cheaper than US fuel.
The figure I quoted of 65P per litre is what the Americans are paying "at the pump" including their taxes etc. Did an online search for best gas price in NY $3.95 per US gallon.As of March last year the TAX on fuel was nearly 58p, + 65p per liter actual cost in US = £1.23, plus VAT at 20% actually makes it £1.48. Meaning if you get it for £1.44 the "base" is cheaper than US fuel.
Their tax is around 20C per litre leaves a cost per litre for the fuel including distributors and petrol companies margin of around 45P per litre. Assuming 60% duty and 20% VAT = 92% on selling out price would equate to 86.4P per litre at the pump! How can the UK cost base for fuel be almost double that of the USA we are being misled by companies inflating their costs to the UK. A major executive car company used to call the UK treasure island because of the profits made here.
turbobloke said:
It could be that rather than sounding like actions with dubious motives by some Fred the Shred in rubber boots, before privatisation the cost burden was too high but sustainable due to having a ready-made reliable source of largesse known as milking the taxpayer, while after privatisation the whole shebang enters the real world. That's not to say the entire picture is rosy on cost cutting.
While a national water grid remains a pipe dream (pun intended) not least due to a double whammy from the last government having wasted most of our money from the boom years and the currently ridiculous price of energy which is at least 20% too high due to climate myths, there is some transfer of water within provider areas and across boundaries and this needs extending.
The cost burden was very high and at that time, 1979, proposed EU legislation meant that the government of the day would have had to find a chunk of money to fund it so instead sold it off. It appears that the proposed EU changes did not come to pass. If your petrol tank leaked 20% of its fuel every time you filled it up you would repair it, oh hang on would you do that if someone else was paying for the fuel as is the case with the water companies. Sadly because it is a utility and privately owned everyone is at their mercy, maybe buy lots of water butts for washing your cars and the garden and get a meter.While a national water grid remains a pipe dream (pun intended) not least due to a double whammy from the last government having wasted most of our money from the boom years and the currently ridiculous price of energy which is at least 20% too high due to climate myths, there is some transfer of water within provider areas and across boundaries and this needs extending.
geordie5858 said:
Their tax is around 20C per litre leaves a cost per litre for the fuel including distributors and petrol companies margin of around 45P per litre. Assuming 60% duty and 20% VAT = 92% on selling out price would equate to 86.4P per litre at the pump! How can the UK cost base for fuel be almost double that of the USA we are being misled by companies inflating their costs to the UK. A major executive car company used to call the UK treasure island because of the profits made here.
Hmmmm.... ....crude bought on the world markets so raw material prices the same.
..... other costs are refining, distribution, sales (petrol stations).
....... it's generally accepted petrol stations make little money.....
........ the haulage companies claim they make no money......
......... refining margins are cut throat .......
.......... so I don't think anybody is profiteering out of fuel prices in the UK except the government.
geordie5858 said:
The figure I quoted of 65P per litre is what the Americans are paying "at the pump" including their taxes etc. Did an online search for best gas price in NY $3.95 per US gallon.
Their tax is around 20C per litre leaves a cost per litre for the fuel including distributors and petrol companies margin of around 45P per litre. Assuming 60% duty and 20% VAT = 92% on selling out price would equate to 86.4P per litre at the pump! How can the UK cost base for fuel be almost double that of the USA we are being misled by companies inflating their costs to the UK. A major executive car company used to call the UK treasure island because of the profits made here.
Forecourt margins in the UK are single digit pence and horribly volatile. Likewise refining is making no money in Europe any more, as the whole region is over capacity. The majors have been offloading their European refining and marketing assets for a few years now, as demand is flat (at best) and costs are increasing due to environmental legislation - sulphur content, EUETS and so on. The profits are all in upstream and petrochemicals, there's really nothing in basic retailing, and even if there was, it's such a tiny amount that they'd really rather not bother. Give it five or ten years and I very much doubt ANY forecourts will be owned by a major, it'll all be supply deals with independent retailers, which is the case for quite a few already. Their tax is around 20C per litre leaves a cost per litre for the fuel including distributors and petrol companies margin of around 45P per litre. Assuming 60% duty and 20% VAT = 92% on selling out price would equate to 86.4P per litre at the pump! How can the UK cost base for fuel be almost double that of the USA we are being misled by companies inflating their costs to the UK. A major executive car company used to call the UK treasure island because of the profits made here.
hornet said:
Forecourt margins in the UK are single digit pence and horribly volatile. Likewise refining is making no money in Europe any more, as the whole region is over capacity. The majors have been offloading their European refining and marketing assets for a few years now, as demand is flat (at best) and costs are increasing due to environmental legislation - sulphur content, EUETS and so on. The profits are all in upstream and petrochemicals, there's really nothing in basic retailing, and even if there was, it's such a tiny amount that they'd really rather not bother. Give it five or ten years and I very much doubt ANY forecourts will be owned by a major, it'll all be supply deals with independent retailers, which is the case for quite a few already.
I agree published forcourt margins are indeed very low and change like the weather. The market is saturated in Europe however it is also saturated in the USA. The main expanding markets for fuel are China and India where they have new found wealth. I still do not see how a globally traded product with a value set by the oil producing cartels can have a near 100% price differential in manufacturing process when both are produced in "the west" with I would estimate a parity of cost base. I hate making assumptions but I would consider that the fuel in the USA is to the same standard, diesel over there is also around 65P per litre as well.geordie5858 said:
I agree published forcourt margins are indeed very low and change like the weather. The market is saturated in Europe however it is also saturated in the USA. The main expanding markets for fuel are China and India where they have new found wealth. I still do not see how a globally traded product with a value set by the oil producing cartels can have a near 100% price differential in manufacturing process when both are produced in "the west" with I would estimate a parity of cost base. I hate making assumptions but I would consider that the fuel in the USA is to the same standard, diesel over there is also around 65P per litre as well.
Can't explain the disparity, except to say non-US refiners also have currency risk to think about, which will push costs up to a degree. Not sure if there are any differences in sulphur content between the two markets, but EU refiners have the EUETS to think about as well. Don't believe there's an equivalent scheme in the US, so that's another cost.geordie5858 said:
The figure I quoted of 65P per litre is what the Americans are paying "at the pump" including their taxes etc. Did an online search for best gas price in NY $3.95 per US gallon.
Their tax is around 20C per litre leaves a cost per litre for the fuel including distributors and petrol companies margin of around 45P per litre. Assuming 60% duty and 20% VAT = 92% on selling out price would equate to 86.4P per litre at the pump! How can the UK cost base for fuel be almost double that of the USA we are being misled by companies inflating their costs to the UK. A major executive car company used to call the UK treasure island because of the profits made here.
Duty is more than that though. It's nearly 60p a liter, and VAT is charged on the total price including duty. Tax on tax. Break down of it here:Their tax is around 20C per litre leaves a cost per litre for the fuel including distributors and petrol companies margin of around 45P per litre. Assuming 60% duty and 20% VAT = 92% on selling out price would equate to 86.4P per litre at the pump! How can the UK cost base for fuel be almost double that of the USA we are being misled by companies inflating their costs to the UK. A major executive car company used to call the UK treasure island because of the profits made here.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15462923
7.1p a litre seems a healthy margin to me, and I wouldn't be surprised if petrol retailers might disagree.
Even so, without tax you could get a litre of petrol on the forecourt for about 54p. Base price is similar to the US.
So I guess with each budget now the only options are to shaft us or be financially irresponsible but what about a tax system that rewards valuable people/companies and penalises the unproductive in society. Obviously I know its too late for us, the labour party has seen to this (and the tories will take the blame as the interest rises on the debt) but assuming a country with a sound economy, honest politicians and honest people what about a 10% tax on productive income and a 90% tax on unproductive (plus a very low variable VAT to control inflation). The productive I mean engineers, inventors, scientists, doctors, entrepreneurs, productive business owners etc and the unproductive banking, politicians, bureaucrats, reality tv, inheritances, criminals, energy, property, accountants, marketers, lawyers, agents etc.
Inflation takes fuel costs into account, so its self perpetuating.Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff