Tip of The Iceberg - The Beginning Of The End For Britain ?

[Mojooo]

LordFlathead said:

Devil's advocate.. maybe she believes that to be true and is just practising her right of freedom of expression? You ideals may not be theirs?

Of course. I dont have a problem with freedom of speech, as long as they dont make a (physical) play for control of the land.

As it is their numbers are far too small for it to be 'tip of the iceberg' terriroty IMO.

[richinleeds]

davepoth said:

Isn't that Catherine Tate doing her gobby schoolgirl thing?

Anyway, I don't see any more people there than at the average EDL / BNP march. Also, with the roads being closed that was an organised and pre-arranged march which the film makers did not just "come across" IMO. Very poor. Also the fact it's been posted by someone with the youtube username "Burnislamburnallah" is not helpful.

Hmmmmm don't think i've ever seen the BNP/EDL chanting British Police go to hell or member's telling perfectly dressed women that their naked?

[tank slapper]

davepoth said:

Anyway, I don't see any more people there than at the average EDL / BNP march. Also, with the roads being closed that was an organised and pre-arranged march which the film makers did not just "come across" IMO. Very poor. Also the fact it's been posted by someone with the youtube username "Burnislamburnallah" is not helpful.

Why is it poor? It's part of a BBC documentary, and it was an organised march. They weren't saying that they just "came across" it. The person it's been posted by obviously has an agenda, but the documentary didn't really - it examined both sides of the situation.

[LordFlathead]

Mojooo said:

LordFlathead said:

Devil's advocate.. maybe she believes that to be true and is just practising her right of freedom of expression? You ideals may not be theirs?

Of course. I dont have a problem with freedom of speech, as long as they dont make a (physical) play for control of the land.

As it is their numbers are far too small for it to be 'tip of the iceberg' terriroty IMO.

So what bearing does 'tip of the iceberg' have in context with the views expressed by the lady in the video? Do you not think that although this was a public demonstration, that many more are being carried out behind closed doors?

[TheD]

I find it a bit disturbing actually. I can't for the life of me understand how that in this day and age we are actually travelling back in time, rather than resolving our problems and moving forward. I've no problem someone having faith, but it seems to me that this has become such a taboo subject, that there is hardly a politician or prominent figure in the land willing to stand up and say something. It will reach beyond the event horizon before it is realised we have left it to late. I pity the state of society when that day actually dawns.

[richinleeds]

LordFlathead said:

Devil's advocate.. maybe she believes that to be true and is just practising her right of freedom of expression? You ideals may not be theirs?

I agree freedom of expression is fine, but she (the muslim) should realise that she is in a western country and that is how the majority of women dress in this country.............if she finds it offensive gtf over to Saudi!

[deltaevo16]

What I find most interesting is that they can protest as much as they like in our country
but what would happen if we protested our views in their country.

[richinleeds]

deltaevo16 said:

What I find most interesting is that they can protest as much as they like in our country
but what would happen if we protested our views in their country.

Yep your right Dave, if they protested like that in a muslim country what would happen?

Well there's only one political party getting my vote at the next election's!

[LordFlathead]

richinleeds said:

LordFlathead said:

Devil's advocate.. maybe she believes that to be true and is just practising her right of freedom of expression? You ideals may not be theirs?

I agree freedom of expression is fine, but she (the muslim) should realise that she is in a western country and that is how the majority of women dress in this country.............if she finds it offensive gtf over to Saudi!

Agreed but there are no laws (in this Western country) on how she should dress, so why should she not voice her opinion given that she is entitled to her freedom of speech and freedom to choose any religion she pleases in this western country?

[richinleeds]

LordFlathead said:

Agreed but there are no laws (in this Western country) on how she should dress, so why should she not voice her opinion given that she is entitled to her freedom of speech and freedom to choose any religion she pleases in this western country?

Hopefully we might get a government who has some balls and ban's the Burqa, she can voice her opinion but she was been damn insulting and rude to the white women nothing to do with religion..........at the end of the day if they don't like it they should leave.

[SystemParanoia]

richinleeds said:

if they don't like it they should leave.

Agreed

but they'd rather go through the effort of regressing this country back to the stone age for some reason

[davepoth]

tank slapper said:

Why is it poor? It's part of a BBC documentary, and it was an organised march. They weren't saying that they just "came across" it. The person it's been posted by obviously has an agenda, but the documentary didn't really - it examined both sides of the situation.

Yes, but the OP asked us to comment upon the video as presented. I've not seen the whole documentary. The voiceover said "It didn't take long to witness the extremism I'd heard about" before cutting to what was on the face of it a well organised march, and that's misleading and inflammatory IMO.

[davepoth]

richinleeds said:

Hmmmmm don't think i've ever seen the BNP/EDL chanting British Police go to hell or member's telling perfectly dressed women that their naked?

No, but I think they do say such things as "Burn a Mosque" and "fk off P*ki".

http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=23675

Both sides are wrong. But it's going to take a long time to turn around attitudes.

[SystemParanoia]

why are you defending them?

its definitely a them or us situation

[LordFlathead]

davepoth said:

tank slapper said:

Why is it poor? It's part of a BBC documentary, and it was an organised march. They weren't saying that they just "came across" it. The person it's been posted by obviously has an agenda, but the documentary didn't really - it examined both sides of the situation.

Yes, but the OP asked us to comment upon the video as presented. I've not seen the whole documentary. The voiceover said "It didn't take long to witness the extremism I'd heard about" before cutting to what was on the face of it a well organised march, and that's misleading and inflammatory IMO.

Well spotted; and this is the reason for the disclaimers - propaganda is clearly visible on both sides. It's not about religion, but moreso about the spreaders of disinformation IMO (and I said I wasn't getting involved?!).

Try and read between the lines for both sides and you will see the dilemma. The trick is recognising where the propaganda starts, and I for one, have no idea!

Do you have a link to the whole documentary? I am totally unaware of this.

[davepoth]

SystemParanoia said:

why are you defending them?

its definitely a them or us situation

I'm not defending anyone; it's indefensible. Radical Islam isn't the problem, just like the EDL, it's a symptom of a wider malaise. And getting pissed off with Radical Islam or the EDL is only going to make it worse.

We've allowed immigrant communities to become far too insular. We've allowed the police to stop being the community authority figure who could stop antisocial behaviour with a stern look. We've allowed parents to abdicate responsibility for their children. We've allowed industry to wither because we were all growing fat off of the success of the city.

Fix all of those, and if Radical Islam or the EDL is still a problem, we can look at it then.

[R26 Monster]

Its all very well saying freedom of speech e.t.c. and i am the greatest advocate of that BUT if we dont do anything about this there will come a time that there will be a civil war, no ifs or buts, they breed faster than everyone else. They are our enemy. We didn't stand by in the 2nd world war and just say those pesky Germans nasty people what what but freedom of speech and all that, lets leave them be. At what point does it become war, there has to be a crunch point. The longer we leave things it will only get worse. There has to be something of truth in the NWO theorys. Who are the people ruling the UK now and where are they taking us? This would never have been tolerated 50 years ago so why now?

So coming back to the freedom of speech theory that all should be able to have there say, i dont think that can work. Wasn't it George Washington who stated that 2 races born equally free cannot live in the same society. If you swap that with Muslims vs Non-Muslims maybe he has a point.

[carmonk]

LordFlathead said:

• MODS - Feel free to delete this topic at any time if you think it may violate the T's and C's, or if it looks to be getting out of hand.

Why would the mods want to delete the topic? That's just pandering to those who play the race card when others debate perfectly valid issues. PH is one of the few places where there is a very sensible balance between allowing free speech and clamping down on geniune abuse.

LordFlathead said:

• Do you see the video to be portraying extremists, or a normal demonstration of a mainstream differing religion that is exercising their right to a freedom of speech in a country that they have lived in and been brought up in?

Neither. It's very much a falsehood to believe that Muslims can be divided into two distinct categories of moderate and extremist, as if it's either one or the other. In reality it's a sliding scale and the tipping point would, I think, alarm any reasonable person. Polls commissioned by the BBC and independant unbiased bodies have found an alarming support for extremist views in 'moderate' Muslim communities, with as many as 1 in 6 young Muslims supporting terrorism ideologies or acts against the West. Disregarding the means, here's what Quilliam, a part government-funded body who recently wrote a report on Islam and extremism, says about the aims:

"Whilst only a small proportion will agree with al-Qaeda's tactics, many will agree with their overall goal of creating a single 'Islamic state' which would bring together all Muslims around the world under a single government and then impose on them a single interpretation of sharia as state law."

Extremists aren't just those who blow themselves up. A self-proclaimed moderate is an extremist if they have views that could be considered extreme:

"...the ideology of non-violent Islamists is broadly the same as that of violent Islamists... they disagree only on tactics.”

Maybe you look at that demo and think, "Ah, well, who cares that a few-hundred nutters spend their days hating the West and trying to impose their will on British society?" If so then you need to think again and revise your estimate upward with haste.

LordFlathead said:

• Do you think that this is just a balanced divide between differing cultures, and that multiple religions can co-exist side by side in a multicultural society?

Some religions can and do. Islam cannot. Do you see the Jews marching against the Catholics, the Buddhists against the Anglicans, Atheists against anybody (Atheism isn't a religion, I know, but still)? Islam is a barbaric religion born of conquest and that's very evident to anyone who does the research. In Islam, non-Muslims are looked upon as fit only for servitude or death. They are a large step down from the Muslim woman, who is degraded and suppressed yet often too brainwashed to know it.

LordFlathead said:

* Do you think that it is possible for two very different religions to co-exist side by side and still accept each others view points without breeding extremists?

Some religions, yes. Islam, no. Christianity used to be similar to Islam up until a few hundred years ago and great evils were done in its name. But Christianity in much of the West has changed and it can do so because the scriptures can be bent, re-interpreted, cherry-picked and generally manipulated to fit the morals of the day. It's a disingenuous practice but at the same time it's of great benefit to the rest of society. Islam cannot do this. The Koran, unlike the Bible, is seen as the literal word of God. Of course Muslims still interpret bits of it differently (and kill thousands of their own every year on the strength of it) but the basic message will never change. Islam, like a virus, will always seek to gain the upper hand.

LordFlathead said:

* Do you view the western objector as a valid complainer or as a protagonist? The uploader for the video calls themselves as "BurnIslamBurnAllah"

You're only asking the question and I don't want to insult you but I feel like telling you to grow a backbone. It's almost like you're afraid to venture an opinion. I can see how people get like this because of how we're constantly bombarded with instructions to respect religion, to respect culture, to kowtow to minorities lest we be branded racist. People need to get a grip and think about what's happening here.

LordFlathead said:

This is way above my comfort zone of engagement, but I believe it would be beneficial for all to be publicly discussed. I was equally shocked when I watched the clip, regardless of how well staged this clip may or may not have been - hence the reason for the post.

I wasn't shocked, I've seen worse and frequently. But you're right to raise the subject and it must be discussed at every opportunity. Find out more about Islam and Islamic culture. Read the Koran, read the hadith, (hard work but I'm getting there), listen to the imams and the scholars, listen to Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens and others (listen to Sam Harris a lot), check out the YouTube debates, read 'God is Not Great', 'A God Who Hates, 'The End of Faith' and anything else relevant and general do the research. Make your own decisions. My own view, which some on PH won't be surprised to hear is strongly held, is that Islam in all its guises is incompatible with civilised society. It needs to be excised like the cancer it is and its infected cultures need to go with it.

[davepoth]

carmonk said:

LordFlathead said:

• MODS - Feel free to delete this topic at any time if you think it may violate the T's and C's, or if it looks to be getting out of hand.

Why would the mods want to delete the topic? That's just pandering to those who play the race card when others debate perfectly valid issues. PH is one of the few places where there is a very sensible balance between allowing free speech and clamping down on geniune abuse.

Exactly because it does have a risk of getting quite out of hand. It's going well so far though.

I'll avoid quoting the rest of your post as it was very long, but this argument cuts both ways. For every survey showing a large number of supporters of Sharia as primary law, a Caliphate, or any other extreme standpoints, I can show you

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1361068/Ha...

in which 48% of people state willingness to vote BNP or similar if they gave up violence.

They're two sides of the same coin, and the answer is not to attack these people for who they are. It's to understand why they hate other people and feel that hating other people is useful, and acceptable.

[carmonk]

davepoth said:

carmonk said:

LordFlathead said:

• MODS - Feel free to delete this topic at any time if you think it may violate the T's and C's, or if it looks to be getting out of hand.

Why would the mods want to delete the topic? That's just pandering to those who play the race card when others debate perfectly valid issues. PH is one of the few places where there is a very sensible balance between allowing free speech and clamping down on geniune abuse.

Exactly because it does have a risk of getting quite out of hand. It's going well so far though.

I'll avoid quoting the rest of your post as it was very long, but this argument cuts both ways. For every survey showing a large number of supporters of Sharia as primary law, a Caliphate, or any other extreme standpoints, I can show you

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1361068/Ha...

in which 48% of people state willingness to vote BNP or similar if they gave up violence.

They're two sides of the same coin, and the answer is not to attack these people for who they are. It's to understand why they hate other people and feel that hating other people is useful, and acceptable.

I do understand why they hate other people; the reason is Islam. All the answers can be found in Islam and Islamic culture, there's no mystery here. The BNP analogy is poor because the BNP is basically an organisation of bumbling racists and Islamic extremism is a theology of hate and conquest with the blood of millions on its hands. A BNP supporter might not always be your ideal neighbour but I think to compare them with murderous terrorists intent on overthrowing civilisation is a bit strong.