Will there ever be a credible non-Social Democratic party?
Discussion
V8mate said:
There was a time when the Conservative Party took a good stab at delivering what I'll call optimistic government.
Pro-capitalist, pro-choice, small government. Everything life's pessimists hate.
Even though I was on the libertarian periphery, I saw the benefit of allegiance with an established party, but cancelled my membership after 1992.
It struck me today that I have been politically disaffected now for twenty years. For twenty years I have been unable to place a vote with a major party at a general election. And I really don't consider myself to be a maverick (you may, of course, disagree).
Sometimes I wonder if I'm just living in the wrong country? Perhaps the British don't like small government. But then I think back to the way people grasped the opportunities the 80s offered and I can't believe that they wouldn't want an optimistic laissez-faire situation returned to them.
I am shocked - and surprised! - at how our contemporary Conservative Party has turned out. And I don't believe that their approach or performance or ethos or policies have anything to do with their having to take power in cahoots with the Lib Dems.
I know that nothing lasts forever and that, of course, the political scene always changes over time. But my own clock seems to tick a lot faster than the political one and I want to see change now. Do you think there's any chance of a proper move away from social democratism over the next, say, fifteen years?
You are talking of classic liberalism.Pro-capitalist, pro-choice, small government. Everything life's pessimists hate.
Even though I was on the libertarian periphery, I saw the benefit of allegiance with an established party, but cancelled my membership after 1992.
It struck me today that I have been politically disaffected now for twenty years. For twenty years I have been unable to place a vote with a major party at a general election. And I really don't consider myself to be a maverick (you may, of course, disagree).
Sometimes I wonder if I'm just living in the wrong country? Perhaps the British don't like small government. But then I think back to the way people grasped the opportunities the 80s offered and I can't believe that they wouldn't want an optimistic laissez-faire situation returned to them.
I am shocked - and surprised! - at how our contemporary Conservative Party has turned out. And I don't believe that their approach or performance or ethos or policies have anything to do with their having to take power in cahoots with the Lib Dems.
I know that nothing lasts forever and that, of course, the political scene always changes over time. But my own clock seems to tick a lot faster than the political one and I want to see change now. Do you think there's any chance of a proper move away from social democratism over the next, say, fifteen years?
Wiki definition: Classical liberalism is the philosophy committed to the ideal of limited government, constitutionalism, rule of law, due process, and liberty of individuals including freedom of religion, speech, press, assembly, and free markets.
Tyre Smoke said:
The BNP in M+S blazers.
One trick pony party.
So they get in and we leave the EU. What happens next? Their entire raison d'etre has been accomplished and they become the new 'Tories'.
We don't have to 'leave' in any real sense, considering we are a net contributor, just needs a pm that puts uk first, total renegotiation, or we reduce yearly contribution, wel just cherry pick what we need, the bits that help us to trade efficiently, we are a massive help to the eu, we provide lots of jobs for foreign workers, they need us not the other way round, it's One trick pony party.
So they get in and we leave the EU. What happens next? Their entire raison d'etre has been accomplished and they become the new 'Tories'.
s like clegg and co that resist this, thier whole family and social scene revolve around made up eu jobs. So hundreds of millions of people suffer to provide employment to a few thousand who are in any real sense unemployable. But surely once they've negotiated the deal we want or pulled us out, that amounts to the same thing, a one trick pony?
Not sure we could 'cherry pick' the bits of the EU we want and leave behind the bits we don't. I think we are either 'in' or 'out'. But I feel that is for another thread.
Agree we need another strong willed PM in there negotiating on our behalf and not Nick 'Neville Chamberlain' Clegg interfering and trying to keep everyone happy.
Not sure we could 'cherry pick' the bits of the EU we want and leave behind the bits we don't. I think we are either 'in' or 'out'. But I feel that is for another thread.
Agree we need another strong willed PM in there negotiating on our behalf and not Nick 'Neville Chamberlain' Clegg interfering and trying to keep everyone happy.
Tyre Smoke said:
But surely once they've negotiated the deal we want or pulled us out, that amounts to the same thing, a one trick pony?
Not sure we could 'cherry pick' the bits of the EU we want and leave behind the bits we don't. I think we are either 'in' or 'out'. But I feel that is for another thread.
Agree we need another strong willed PM in there negotiating on our behalf and not Nick 'Neville Chamberlain' Clegg interfering and trying to keep everyone happy.
Easy - copy, paste, have vote, make law.Not sure we could 'cherry pick' the bits of the EU we want and leave behind the bits we don't. I think we are either 'in' or 'out'. But I feel that is for another thread.
Agree we need another strong willed PM in there negotiating on our behalf and not Nick 'Neville Chamberlain' Clegg interfering and trying to keep everyone happy.
No need to do the EU bit at all.
Tyre Smoke said:
odyssey2200 said:
Vote UKIP
Whats the worst that could happen?
The BNP in M+S blazers.Whats the worst that could happen?
One trick pony party.
So they get in and we leave the EU. What happens next? Their entire raison d'etre has been accomplished and they become the new 'Tories'.
powerstroke said:
Tyre Smoke said:
odyssey2200 said:
Vote UKIP
Whats the worst that could happen?
The BNP in M+S blazers.Whats the worst that could happen?
One trick pony party.
So they get in and we leave the EU. What happens next? Their entire raison d'etre has been accomplished and they become the new 'Tories'.
Slipping
Derek Smith said:
You are talking of classic liberalism.
Wiki definition: Classical liberalism is the philosophy committed to the ideal of limited government, constitutionalism, rule of law, due process, and liberty of individuals including freedom of religion, speech, press, assembly, and free markets.
Sounds good to me, what's to disagree with?Wiki definition: Classical liberalism is the philosophy committed to the ideal of limited government, constitutionalism, rule of law, due process, and liberty of individuals including freedom of religion, speech, press, assembly, and free markets.
V8mate said:
There was a time when the Conservative Party took a good stab at delivering what I'll call optimistic government.
Pro-capitalist, pro-choice, small government. Everything life's pessimists hate.
Even though I was on the libertarian periphery, I saw the benefit of allegiance with an established party, but cancelled my membership after 1992.
It struck me today that I have been politically disaffected now for twenty years. For twenty years I have been unable to place a vote with a major party at a general election. And I really don't consider myself to be a maverick (you may, of course, disagree).
Sometimes I wonder if I'm just living in the wrong country? Perhaps the British don't like small government. But then I think back to the way people grasped the opportunities the 80s offered and I can't believe that they wouldn't want an optimistic laissez-faire situation returned to them.
I am shocked - and surprised! - at how our contemporary Conservative Party has turned out. And I don't believe that their approach or performance or ethos or policies have anything to do with their having to take power in cahoots with the Lib Dems.
I know that nothing lasts forever and that, of course, the political scene always changes over time. But my own clock seems to tick a lot faster than the political one and I want to see change now. Do you think there's any chance of a proper move away from social democratism over the next, say, fifteen years?
Thing is, you're well aware of the processes that have led us to the current state.Pro-capitalist, pro-choice, small government. Everything life's pessimists hate.
Even though I was on the libertarian periphery, I saw the benefit of allegiance with an established party, but cancelled my membership after 1992.
It struck me today that I have been politically disaffected now for twenty years. For twenty years I have been unable to place a vote with a major party at a general election. And I really don't consider myself to be a maverick (you may, of course, disagree).
Sometimes I wonder if I'm just living in the wrong country? Perhaps the British don't like small government. But then I think back to the way people grasped the opportunities the 80s offered and I can't believe that they wouldn't want an optimistic laissez-faire situation returned to them.
I am shocked - and surprised! - at how our contemporary Conservative Party has turned out. And I don't believe that their approach or performance or ethos or policies have anything to do with their having to take power in cahoots with the Lib Dems.
I know that nothing lasts forever and that, of course, the political scene always changes over time. But my own clock seems to tick a lot faster than the political one and I want to see change now. Do you think there's any chance of a proper move away from social democratism over the next, say, fifteen years?
"Social Democracy" is now the only system that is countenanced in the West. It's the result of decades of "social research", "think tanks" and their influence upon the politicians, convincing them that this is what will appeal to the majority. Which, of course, leads us to the postion we are in, with so many dependant on the State, many employed, directly or indirectly, by the State.
Current concerns would seem to indicate that the State wants even more control.
Understand, all those who aspire to a political position are educated in the current philosophy.
This is a really good thread and I will do my best to not bring it down.
I'm a floating voter with ideals spread across the spectrum, I voted Labour in 2001 and 2005 but Conservative in 2010 which really was a 50/50 decision. I think the OP has a point, pretty much all parties now are trying to claim 'the centre.' The Conservative's will never attempt to take us back to 'small Government' because it wouldn't win votes. Even in Thatcher's landslide year in 1983, over 53% of voters voted for left sided parties. In 1987, over 54% voted for left sided parties so I dont think we've seen a major shift in public opinion, 61% of voters voted for left sided parties in 1997. There is a school of thought that numerous boundary changes over the last decade has effectively locked 'the left' in with a strong chance of taking Westminster in one form or another, where as in the 80s they failed to do so despite having the larger share of votes. That could be a conspiracy invented by arch Conservative's who fail to recognise the voters haven't been on their side for decades.
I feel the UK is a nation squarely in the centre of politics. I personally am a big fan of the principle of the 'Third Way' lauded by the likes of Tony Blair and Bill Clinton. It has to be said Thatcher's time wasn't as rosey as many arch Tories remember and the far left has never solved all the problems either, so I do feel a blend of the two is worth a shot. Unemployment is a major issue now which we blame Labour for, but unemployment was a massive issue in Thatcher's years as well dont forget. The free market doesnt solve everything by itself. I dont think the UK likes small Government, we are a nation which want elected people to be accountable for things, not faceless business people in boardrooms. There's still unease about the Train and Water boards being privatised and the fury over the NHS plans prove my point, the UK does not like privatisation of public services. We like our Government to spend money but we want them to spend it properly, which several have failed to do. Elections boil down to what our Government pledges to spend money on, not whether it intends to spend it or not.
The OP mentioned immigration and that he doesn't care who comes into the country. The modern Conservative Party clearly do care who comes into the country, immigration was a hot button issue during Labour's time in office and it was the subject people were afraid to discuss, it was like the third rail - nobody dare touch it. The Tories were the most vocal opponents of Labour/EU immigration policies within the mainstream parties, they do want to limit who can come in and they're supposedly centre-right yet the OP identifies such a mindset as left wing protectionism. In my view protectionism extends to both flanks just under different ideals. Is this evidence that all parties are trying to put a flag on the centre? If so is that the reason we have a hung parliament? Is there simply just not enough difference between our parties anymore? I remember in 2010 everybody agreed with Nick.
I became disillusioned with Labour towards the end, perhaps it was an example as to how the Third Way isn't a fully formed idea especially when the Party doesnt all pull in one direction. Pro market centrists like Blair were held back by the more traditional Labour folk such as Brown and Prescott, who identified more strongly with the Foot-Kinnock years. Indeed the Tory party is a large complicated party to the extent they're their own worst enemy because they can't all get along.
Its interesting how in UK politics i'd edge slightly towards Conservative yet in American politics I identify more strongly with the Democratic Party. If the Republicans were in the UK they'd probably be split into 3 or 4 different parties with the pro life bible bashers in a party all by themselves. I dont neccessarily believe the free market solves everything, the free market has decided over 30million Americans shouldn't have health insurance for instance. In my view the role of Government is to plug the gaps the free market cannot plug and to look after the people the free market left behind, such as those with diseases so rare its not profitable for a drug company to develop treatment for it. More relevent to the UK I'd say the public sector is important at employing people the private sector would ignore and employing them in jobs the private sector would deem unprofitable - because they are.
Its important to stress many issues people complain about these days are not new. The London rioters and general underclass scum are not a product of Labour's 13 years, we had riots in London in the 1980s for similar reasons as to now it seems. I do get frustrated with the belief of some PH'ers that all was rosey before 1997 because it certainly wasn't.
I'm a floating voter with ideals spread across the spectrum, I voted Labour in 2001 and 2005 but Conservative in 2010 which really was a 50/50 decision. I think the OP has a point, pretty much all parties now are trying to claim 'the centre.' The Conservative's will never attempt to take us back to 'small Government' because it wouldn't win votes. Even in Thatcher's landslide year in 1983, over 53% of voters voted for left sided parties. In 1987, over 54% voted for left sided parties so I dont think we've seen a major shift in public opinion, 61% of voters voted for left sided parties in 1997. There is a school of thought that numerous boundary changes over the last decade has effectively locked 'the left' in with a strong chance of taking Westminster in one form or another, where as in the 80s they failed to do so despite having the larger share of votes. That could be a conspiracy invented by arch Conservative's who fail to recognise the voters haven't been on their side for decades.
I feel the UK is a nation squarely in the centre of politics. I personally am a big fan of the principle of the 'Third Way' lauded by the likes of Tony Blair and Bill Clinton. It has to be said Thatcher's time wasn't as rosey as many arch Tories remember and the far left has never solved all the problems either, so I do feel a blend of the two is worth a shot. Unemployment is a major issue now which we blame Labour for, but unemployment was a massive issue in Thatcher's years as well dont forget. The free market doesnt solve everything by itself. I dont think the UK likes small Government, we are a nation which want elected people to be accountable for things, not faceless business people in boardrooms. There's still unease about the Train and Water boards being privatised and the fury over the NHS plans prove my point, the UK does not like privatisation of public services. We like our Government to spend money but we want them to spend it properly, which several have failed to do. Elections boil down to what our Government pledges to spend money on, not whether it intends to spend it or not.
The OP mentioned immigration and that he doesn't care who comes into the country. The modern Conservative Party clearly do care who comes into the country, immigration was a hot button issue during Labour's time in office and it was the subject people were afraid to discuss, it was like the third rail - nobody dare touch it. The Tories were the most vocal opponents of Labour/EU immigration policies within the mainstream parties, they do want to limit who can come in and they're supposedly centre-right yet the OP identifies such a mindset as left wing protectionism. In my view protectionism extends to both flanks just under different ideals. Is this evidence that all parties are trying to put a flag on the centre? If so is that the reason we have a hung parliament? Is there simply just not enough difference between our parties anymore? I remember in 2010 everybody agreed with Nick.
I became disillusioned with Labour towards the end, perhaps it was an example as to how the Third Way isn't a fully formed idea especially when the Party doesnt all pull in one direction. Pro market centrists like Blair were held back by the more traditional Labour folk such as Brown and Prescott, who identified more strongly with the Foot-Kinnock years. Indeed the Tory party is a large complicated party to the extent they're their own worst enemy because they can't all get along.
Its interesting how in UK politics i'd edge slightly towards Conservative yet in American politics I identify more strongly with the Democratic Party. If the Republicans were in the UK they'd probably be split into 3 or 4 different parties with the pro life bible bashers in a party all by themselves. I dont neccessarily believe the free market solves everything, the free market has decided over 30million Americans shouldn't have health insurance for instance. In my view the role of Government is to plug the gaps the free market cannot plug and to look after the people the free market left behind, such as those with diseases so rare its not profitable for a drug company to develop treatment for it. More relevent to the UK I'd say the public sector is important at employing people the private sector would ignore and employing them in jobs the private sector would deem unprofitable - because they are.
Its important to stress many issues people complain about these days are not new. The London rioters and general underclass scum are not a product of Labour's 13 years, we had riots in London in the 1980s for similar reasons as to now it seems. I do get frustrated with the belief of some PH'ers that all was rosey before 1997 because it certainly wasn't.
martin84 said:
I do get frustrated with the belief of some PH'ers that all was rosey before 1997 because it certainly wasn't.
Recently I've taken to ranting to Mrs. WG, "Bring back the 1960s". Yes, I'm that old.Now, why do I do this? It's to do with the feeling of liberation, the emancipation of women, the acceptance of anyone's sexuality, the freedom of the roads, the lack of the State trying to micromanage every aspect of our lives. In fact, the State was frightened by what was happening.
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