Will there ever be a credible non-Social Democratic party?
Discussion
WhoseGeneration said:
martin84 said:
I do get frustrated with the belief of some PH'ers that all was rosey before 1997 because it certainly wasn't.
Recently I've taken to ranting to Mrs. WG, "Bring back the 1960s". Yes, I'm that old.Now, why do I do this? It's to do with the feeling of liberation, the emancipation of women, the acceptance of anyone's sexuality, the freedom of the roads, the lack of the State trying to micromanage every aspect of our lives. In fact, the State was frightened by what was happening.
What our elected leaders did would be much more transparent, cause and effect of poor governace would be much easyer to judge and they would have to deal with the big issues and not get away with just micromanaging and fiddling round the edges ????
Edited by powerstroke on Friday 6th April 08:27
Edited by powerstroke on Friday 6th April 08:29
WhoseGeneration said:
Recently I've taken to ranting to Mrs. WG, "Bring back the 1960s". Yes, I'm that old.
Now, why do I do this? It's to do with the feeling of liberation, the emancipation of women, the acceptance of anyone's sexuality, the freedom of the roads, the lack of the State trying to micromanage every aspect of our lives. In fact, the State was frightened by what was happening.
Who's Generation perhaps?Now, why do I do this? It's to do with the feeling of liberation, the emancipation of women, the acceptance of anyone's sexuality, the freedom of the roads, the lack of the State trying to micromanage every aspect of our lives. In fact, the State was frightened by what was happening.
I'm of your generation. I lived through the 60s and a teenager and young man. I went to art college at the time and there was so much original thought, so much skill and ability shown by those around me that it was intoxicating.
I remember sitting around a table talking about a Beetle advert and missing the start of a lesson. When we got to the class and showed the instructor the magazine he changed the lesson.
See: http://www.adclassix.com/ads/64vwbeetle.htm
My favourite was: http://www.adclassix.com/ads/65vwbeetlehowlong.htm
Fabulous times and not only were there brilliant adverts but the girls wore short skirts. The relationship beteween men and women changed. Sex was something you did together rather than what was done to girls. You could actually talk about sex to the opposite sex. That, believe it or not, was new.
Politics was ignored. We could do anything ourselves.
As you say, the state suddenly got frightened and, as states do, reacted, too late, too little and way off target.
We were told 'There are no rules' [in graphic art] and it seemed to go for everything else as well. A friend lived with his girlfriend with her parents' consent, as well as his.
Rules, we were told, were brought in by those who lacked imagination and ability. I lacked ability in graphic art unfortunately, but given how the gifted were allowed to express their abilities it didn't seem to matter.
Despite thinking at the time I'd got it cracked it would appear I missed out on much of the sexual freedoms if current histories are to be believed. But I still think the pill was as much a release for men as it was for women.
The 60s started with teenaged girls dressing like their mothers. It ended with mothers dressing like their daughters. Politics didn't seem to matter apart from specifics, the bomb, various wars being fought for no reason other than lining the pockets of the arms manufacturers, that sort of thing. The fact that you could not tell the policies of the various parties apart seemed to sum up the time.
It was exciting. If I could go back now, knowing what I know, I'd probably be dead within a month but what a way to go.
Some fantastic contributions; thanks chaps 
It's great that people are sharing their own experiences of the way the political scene has changed and how it has felt to them.
This morning's news that the law regarding tobacco products having to be sold from closed cupboards - and I've never smoked a cigarette in my life - left me feeling so deflated. A bit like the burying carbon dioxide issue I started a thread on a few days back, I'm not surprised that someone in political circles came up with the idea - we need people of ideas in politics - but I'm surprised that no-one stood up and said that it would never deliver anything of value.
Back on-topic though, for me it's just another couple of examples of the Conservatives not only drifting to the centre, but increasingly to a distinctly socialist and central-planning type approach.
Frankly, I think someone in their mid-teens is more competent to decide whether to smoke or not than the two-year old, sitting in his buggy this morning, ahead of me in the queue at my local convenience store, was to decide whether his mother was a good role model when she consulted him as to which scratch card she should buy.
Sorry. I've gone of topic again.
It's great that people are sharing their own experiences of the way the political scene has changed and how it has felt to them.
This morning's news that the law regarding tobacco products having to be sold from closed cupboards - and I've never smoked a cigarette in my life - left me feeling so deflated. A bit like the burying carbon dioxide issue I started a thread on a few days back, I'm not surprised that someone in political circles came up with the idea - we need people of ideas in politics - but I'm surprised that no-one stood up and said that it would never deliver anything of value.
Back on-topic though, for me it's just another couple of examples of the Conservatives not only drifting to the centre, but increasingly to a distinctly socialist and central-planning type approach.
Frankly, I think someone in their mid-teens is more competent to decide whether to smoke or not than the two-year old, sitting in his buggy this morning, ahead of me in the queue at my local convenience store, was to decide whether his mother was a good role model when she consulted him as to which scratch card she should buy.
Sorry. I've gone of topic again.
ElvisPenhaligon said:
The red herring is the focus on Left and Right. This is irrelevant.
What is highly relevant and of critical importance to us all is the "up down" axis. That of totalitarianism vs libertarianism.
Regardless of what left-right flavour you like, it will come with more totalitarianism.
Exactly correct re: left/right dogma. Irrelevant centuries-old ideologies. What is highly relevant and of critical importance to us all is the "up down" axis. That of totalitarianism vs libertarianism.
Regardless of what left-right flavour you like, it will come with more totalitarianism.
Society's - global society's - problems are profound. There is a clash between the basis of economics (that scarcity relative to demand is the basis of value) and humanism (to hold life, preservation and extension of it, above all else). Either economists or humanists need to change.
Commitments to full employment - a cornerstone of social markets/democracies - are impossible to achieve because of population size and demographic spread but, above all, because of the displacement of work by technology.
Firstly from the primary sector (industrial revolution in farming and mining), then from the secondary sector (automated factories) and latterly from the service sector (press 1 for this, press 2 for that; drive an entire industrial/commercial process from your smart phone...) There are more people (consumers) and less work.
How resources are distributed, what the basis for distribution should be, is a big question. You may be right that the axis is totalitarianism vs libertarianism.
I know exactly where you're coming from OP. Feel largely the same.
Sadly, I think Thatcher was very much the exception rather than the rule, even before 1990. If you look back to the likes of Heath, the social-democratic conservatism is not a new phenomenon. There are still elements of it around the conservatives - John Redwood, David Davis and the fantastic Daniel Hannan.
The silver lining is, I believe events will drive a change more than policies, and when there's nothing else left to do wrong, the Conservatives will probably try doing something right and these people will have a louder voice.
Of course, as with Churchill and Thatcher they'll end up marginalising them and replacing them with wrongheads after a while, but sadly enough, they're still the best hope.
Plan B is UKIP. They talk a lot of sense in some areas, and if things really go pear shaped before the election you couldn't rule out the possibility of them picking up a seat or two, and giving the Conservatives some food for thought.
Sadly, I think Thatcher was very much the exception rather than the rule, even before 1990. If you look back to the likes of Heath, the social-democratic conservatism is not a new phenomenon. There are still elements of it around the conservatives - John Redwood, David Davis and the fantastic Daniel Hannan.
The silver lining is, I believe events will drive a change more than policies, and when there's nothing else left to do wrong, the Conservatives will probably try doing something right and these people will have a louder voice.
Of course, as with Churchill and Thatcher they'll end up marginalising them and replacing them with wrongheads after a while, but sadly enough, they're still the best hope.
Plan B is UKIP. They talk a lot of sense in some areas, and if things really go pear shaped before the election you couldn't rule out the possibility of them picking up a seat or two, and giving the Conservatives some food for thought.
AJS- said:
Of course, as with Churchill and Thatcher they'll end up marginalising them and replacing them with wrongheads after a while, but sadly enough, they're still the best hope.
I think you will find that Churchill was no so much replaced as supported even after a severe stroke that no one bothered to mention when he was PM in his first elected government.Whilst many believe that he proved himself during the war to be a great leader, as to whether he'd have been a decent PM, other than as leader of a war coalition, is open to doubt. He didn't equit himself too well in his short term as peacetime PM in charge of an elected government, especially with his 'send a gunboat' diplomacy when there was little or nothing in the coffers.
Churchill was past it when he lead his first conservative government. He'd already had at least one stroke, maybe more. The one when he was PM was really quite serious. He was unable to continue.
Eden was a disaster. Or rather, one disaster after another.
I suppose you could say becoming a sovereign individual as Rees-Mogg calls it or you could be more cutting and say high class gippo.
Either way, the aim is to be as tax neutral as possible. Note the word "neutral" rather than the phrase "as much evasion as possible".
Of course, this doesn't imply the neglect of one's family, neighbours, etc.
Either way, the aim is to be as tax neutral as possible. Note the word "neutral" rather than the phrase "as much evasion as possible".
Of course, this doesn't imply the neglect of one's family, neighbours, etc.
Halb said:
ElvisPenhaligon said:
The practical solution to this is to distance yourself as far from the reaches of the state as possible by understanding and management.
That sounds the most practical, since the Tory/Labour farce will continue ad nauseum.How do you do it?
I don't know if any of you chaps have read it, but there's an excellent book called The Rational Optimist which traces how, effectively, market-led behaviours have delivered human prosperity since forever.
If you're a bit of a book miser, there's an eBay seller who seems to have a pile of them for next to nothing. If it wasn't such a fascist idea, I'd insist that every sixth form student of economics, politics, geography, history and, probably, a few other subjects read it.
We've had twenty years of mediocrity and pandering to the lowest common denominator; it's surely time for natural optimism and self-starting to rise once again?
If you're a bit of a book miser, there's an eBay seller who seems to have a pile of them for next to nothing. If it wasn't such a fascist idea, I'd insist that every sixth form student of economics, politics, geography, history and, probably, a few other subjects read it.
We've had twenty years of mediocrity and pandering to the lowest common denominator; it's surely time for natural optimism and self-starting to rise once again?
I must say my personal experiences must echo v8mate's.
My first general election was 97 and I voted Tory in an effort to stem the tide of idiots voting Labour in Bristol, the Tory incumbent was swept away.
In 2001 and 2005 I voted in Reading East, a true marginal - every vote counted!
I now live in the Newbury constuency and enjoyed the freedom of voting for Ukip last time round - and I shall do now for the foreseeable future!
My first general election was 97 and I voted Tory in an effort to stem the tide of idiots voting Labour in Bristol, the Tory incumbent was swept away.
In 2001 and 2005 I voted in Reading East, a true marginal - every vote counted!
I now live in the Newbury constuency and enjoyed the freedom of voting for Ukip last time round - and I shall do now for the foreseeable future!
ElvisPenhaligon said:
The red herring is the focus on Left and Right. This is irrelevant.
What is highly relevant and of critical importance to us all is the "up down" axis. That of totalitarianism vs libertarianism.
Regardless of what left-right flavour you like, it will come with more totalitarianism.
Absolutely!What is highly relevant and of critical importance to us all is the "up down" axis. That of totalitarianism vs libertarianism.
Regardless of what left-right flavour you like, it will come with more totalitarianism.
We need to tell all the authoritarians and puritans where to get off...
Puggit said:
I must say my personal experiences must echo v8mate's.
My first general election was 97 and I voted Tory in an effort to stem the tide of idiots voting Labour in Bristol, the Tory incumbent was swept away.
In 2001 and 2005 I voted in Reading East, a true marginal - every vote counted!
I now live in the Newbury constuency and enjoyed the freedom of voting for Ukip last time round - and I shall do now for the foreseeable future!
No offence, but I find that amusing as you own such a lovely holiday home in France!!My first general election was 97 and I voted Tory in an effort to stem the tide of idiots voting Labour in Bristol, the Tory incumbent was swept away.
In 2001 and 2005 I voted in Reading East, a true marginal - every vote counted!
I now live in the Newbury constuency and enjoyed the freedom of voting for Ukip last time round - and I shall do now for the foreseeable future!
We also seem to be riding on a new roller coaster of intrusive/nanny statism.
Cigarettes behind closed doors and threats to enforce plain packaging.
Alcohol pricing regimes which impact the sensible drinker (the majority) as much as the idiots.
Extension of personal data held for/on behealf of the State.
Why is no-one saying 'stop'? Why is no-one offering a political solution which excludes/winds back these things?
Do you think ... <deep breath>... that British people on the whole actually prefer the comfort blanket of the State?
Cigarettes behind closed doors and threats to enforce plain packaging.
Alcohol pricing regimes which impact the sensible drinker (the majority) as much as the idiots.
Extension of personal data held for/on behealf of the State.
Why is no-one saying 'stop'? Why is no-one offering a political solution which excludes/winds back these things?
Do you think ... <deep breath>... that British people on the whole actually prefer the comfort blanket of the State?
V8mate said:
We also seem to be riding on a new roller coaster of intrusive/nanny statism.
Cigarettes behind closed doors and threats to enforce plain packaging.
Alcohol pricing regimes which impact the sensible drinker (the majority) as much as the idiots.
Extension of personal data held for/on behealf of the State.
Why is no-one saying 'stop'? Why is no-one offering a political solution which excludes/winds back these things?
Do you think ... <deep breath>... that British people on the whole actually prefer the comfort blanket of the State?
Maybe we have learned that regardless of what petitions you sign, you will get a nice email telling you how you were wrong and how the Gov't will do WTF it wants anyway?Cigarettes behind closed doors and threats to enforce plain packaging.
Alcohol pricing regimes which impact the sensible drinker (the majority) as much as the idiots.
Extension of personal data held for/on behealf of the State.
Why is no-one saying 'stop'? Why is no-one offering a political solution which excludes/winds back these things?
Do you think ... <deep breath>... that British people on the whole actually prefer the comfort blanket of the State?
Vive La Revolucion
Puggit said:
In 2001 and 2005 I voted in Reading East, a true marginal - every vote counted!
Sadly, it isn't any more. In the last General Election, it really was up for grabs three ways. However, since then the boundary has been expanded to include some of the (near 100% Tory) Maidenhead constituency. This has effectively sewn it up as a Tory certainty.As thinfourth2 said, the AV referendum was truly a missed opportunity for some real change, and the chance to introduce some competition to politics and open up the possibiilty of voting for other parties, without the fear of wasting a vote. Sadly, the British public swallowed the Labour and Tory line and opted for the status quo. Criminal. We are essentially now stuck with a Lab/Con duopoly for ever, with only the smallest chance of some LibDem influence from time to time. All other parties are just peeing in the wind when it comes to national government.
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