Toynbee - "tax returns of every citizen must be made public"

[Willy Nilly]

Bring it on.

It would be interesting to see ken Livingstone's tax returns.

AFAIK they tax returns are all public in the US too.

[Blue62]

AndrewW-G said:

Why do you want to know? . . . . or are you still upset that they have a better car / bigger house / haven't returned the hedge clippers they borrowed from you last year etc. etc. etc.


As with many of these things, anybody who wants to know, is the sort of person who shouldn't be told

I don't want to know, that wasn't the point, I was questioning what harm it would do. In answer to Carmonk, we're not talking about cultures that are world's apart Scandinavia is not the Amazon Rainforest, so taking one element of good practice (if that's what it is) and using it in this country makes sense, especially if those societies are broadly aligned, which they are. Likewise privacy, if you're standing in my garden it's trespass and looking through my window is an invasion of privacy. If every working citizen is expected to pay tax and contribute their share, publishing the details doesn't constitute an invasion of privacy per se.

[audidoody]

She invited me to email her with evidence of tax avoidance. So I did:

http://autonomousmind.wordpress.com/2011/02/19/the...

[carmonk]

Blue62 said:

AndrewW-G said:

Why do you want to know? . . . . or are you still upset that they have a better car / bigger house / haven't returned the hedge clippers they borrowed from you last year etc. etc. etc.


As with many of these things, anybody who wants to know, is the sort of person who shouldn't be told

I don't want to know, that wasn't the point, I was questioning what harm it would do. In answer to Carmonk, we're not talking about cultures that are world's apart Scandinavia is not the Amazon Rainforest, so taking one element of good practice (if that's what it is) and using it in this country makes sense, especially if those societies are broadly aligned, which they are.

The proximity of countries don't mean their customs are similar. And I'm not sure why it would make more sense for us to adopt the Scandinavian method than Scandinavian countries adopting ours.

Blue62 said:

Likewise privacy, if you're standing in my garden it's trespass and looking through my window is an invasion of privacy. If every working citizen is expected to pay tax and contribute their share, publishing the details doesn't constitute an invasion of privacy per se.

It does, the difference being it's a mass invasion of privacy. It's not trespass to look through your window any more than it's good practice to let your neighbour judge your contribution to society.

[cardigankid]

Nasty self righteous pompous silver spooned windbag.

'Polly Toynbee was born on the Isle of Wight, the second daughter of the literary critic Philip Toynbee (by his first wife Anne), granddaughter of the historian Arnold J. Toynbee, and great-great niece of philanthropist and economic historian Arnold Toynbee, after whom Toynbee Hall in the East End of London is named...'

Another Oxbridge know-it-all in other words. She won a scholarship to St.Anne's College Oxford to read History, despite gaining only one A-Level. I wonder how that came about, surely not family influence or Oxbridge's noted preference for the offspring of celebs? Evidently she expected to be given a degree without doing any work either as she dropped out after 18 months.

[pingu393]

cardigankid said:

She won a scholarship to St.Anne's College Oxford to read History, despite gaining only one A-Level. I wonder how that came about, surely not family influence or Oxbridge's noted preference for the offspring of celebs? Evidently she expected to be given a degree without doing any work either as she dropped out after 18 months.

So, she wasted a scholarship and the public funds that paid for her higher education.

[FarleyRusk]

I love all the left wing hypocrisy, but I'm not really surprised. I have a socialist work colleague and cornered him with the question as to why he thought it acceptable to have a motorbike hobby when millions are starving out there? Of course he didn't have an answer. I want all lefties to give everything they don't actually need to a good cause before expecting me to part wih mine. I expect hell will freeze over first. Socialism is about control not any notion of egality.

Oh by the way I paid xx,000 in taxes last year, but that's my fking business, alright?

[Blue62]

carmonk said:

It does, the difference being it's a mass invasion of privacy. It's not trespass to look through your window any more than it's good practice to let your neighbour judge your contribution to society.

Who said anything about proximity? I thought you were talking about culture and I was trying to make the point that ours is not so different to Scandinavia, geographical proximity has nothing to do with it, USA, Canada etc. I don't know where judging neighbours comes into the argument, you lost me, unless you're suggesting that this is all about encouraging snooping, which I think misses the point. For the record, successive governments have tried to encourage snooping on benefits cheats, so why should tax dodgers be any different, is it less palatable to the chattering classes?

[carmonk]

Blue62 said:

carmonk said:

It does, the difference being it's a mass invasion of privacy. It's not trespass to look through your window any more than it's good practice to let your neighbour judge your contribution to society.

Who said anything about proximity? I thought you were talking about culture and I was trying to make the point that ours is not so different to Scandinavia, geographical proximity has nothing to do with it, USA, Canada etc.

I was saying that I don't know a great deal about Scandinavian countries but I'm not assuming their cultures and customs are similar enough with ours to be interchangeable. I suspect they're not. In any event, decisions shouldn't be taken on the basis of "Well they do it so we'll do it too." Things should be more considered and based on merit.

Blue62 said:

I don't know where judging neighbours comes into the argument, you lost me, unless you're suggesting that this is all about encouraging snooping, which I think misses the point. For the record, successive governments have tried to encourage snooping on benefits cheats, so why should tax dodgers be any different, is it less palatable to the chattering classes?

I think it does revolve around encouraging snooping. What other possible reason could there be? Otherwise we'd continue with the same method we have now of finding out how much our neighbour pays in tax; you knock on their door and you ask them. Except you wouldn't because they'd tell you to ps off, and that's why this is just a busybody's charter aimed at getting citizens to do the government's job for them.

What next, should we make everybody's internet browsing public? I wonder what my neighbour's looking at today, I'll go check it out... How about the journeys we make in our cars and the speed we travel (after all that could be detrimental to the planet), the heating and water we use, the places we frequent, the options are limitless if we accept that transparency is the only criteria.

It's not up to the bloke down the street to make a judgement on your financial affairs and therefore there's no reason to provide him with the information.


And when did the swear filter kick in on piss? A fine little word that had up until recently been immune from the dreaded censor graphic. Boo. Edit: Hang on. Piss. ps off. Piss OK. ps off not. You learn something new every day.

Edited by carmonk on Tuesday 10th April 20:08

[mondeoman]

Because its nobodies business but mine and the taxmans.

Thats a good enough reason.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool.

Although I'm tempted to say otherwise, it would also be wrong to publish public servants tax returns. Its the taxmans job to make sure that people pay the right amounts of tax, not my neighbours, not yours.

[collateral]

It wouldn't bother me because I don't fiddle mine.

[turbobloke]

What about people on PAYE with no requirement to complete a tax return, maybe Ms Toynbee has something else in store for them - but what other snooping should they be subjected to?

Should HMRC be snooped on, on behalf of taxpayers, and if so how?

collateral said:

It wouldn't bother me because I don't fiddle mine.

From other posts in this thread it looks like there are several reasons beyond not being on the fiddle to object to the proposal, and as a result but not only for that reason, objecting to it doesn't imply fiddling.

[W124Bob]

Lets start with Bob Crow and Len Mcrusty and Alan Rusbridger followed by Winky and Blair if they will I will!

[Disgusted]

Dear old Polly has been repeatedly challenged to reveal her income for years. She has consistently refused to do this.

It's only now, when dear sainted Ken Livingstone has been backed into hypocrisy corner (and taking a lead from Mobiot), that she's finally taken the plunge (though it's just her Guardian salary) .

And also only after Guardian Editor, the dearly beloved Mr Rusbridger, was unmasked as a true Socialist "earning" £500K pa for running a failing and massively loss making leftist newspaper.

Trebles all round!

[NoNeed]

On the plus side champagne socialists that preach against tax avoidance like ken livingstone and his mate blair would be exposed.

The idea does have a few merits, sad that we even have to consider it though.

[thinfourth2]

W124Bob said:

Lets start with Bob Crow and Len Mcrusty and Alan Rusbridger followed by Winky and Blair if they will I will!

I shall stand here and defend Gordon Brown

It is a truly outrageous lie to say that he would ever do that

It shows a total lack understanding in the man, his morals and abilities

After seeing the man in action i truly believe that he would never tax part in tax avoidance

That would take an understanding of money

[alfaman]

cardigankid said:

Another Oxbridge know-it-all

You really are prejudiced or envious against Oxbridge alumni aren't you ?

Which College[s] didn't offer you a place then?

[oyster]

Blue62 said:

I don't want to know, that wasn't the point, I was questioning what harm it would do. In answer to Carmonk, we're not talking about cultures that are world's apart Scandinavia is not the Amazon Rainforest, so taking one element of good practice (if that's what it is) and using it in this country makes sense, especially if those societies are broadly aligned, which they are. Likewise privacy, if you're standing in my garden it's trespass and looking through my window is an invasion of privacy. If every working citizen is expected to pay tax and contribute their share, publishing the details doesn't constitute an invasion of privacy per se.

How is looking into your house considered an invasion of privacy, but looking into your financial affairs not so?

[Blue62]

oyster said:

How is looking into your house considered an invasion of privacy, but looking into your financial affairs not so?

I know it's a bore, but you need to read through the previous posts, I am not defending this suggestion, just debating it. That aside, this is about publishing tax payments, not looking into financial affairs, you've somewhat distorted it there. There is a further assumption (could be right) that this is about snooping, an alternative view is that it is about recognition of the tax we, as individual citizens, pay and it is not intended to encourage snooping, which people on here tend to think is a bad thing, unless it applies to benefits cheats.

[otolith]

Blue62 said:

That aside, this is about publishing tax payments, not looking into financial affairs, you've somewhat distorted it there.

I think it's the publishing of income which is more contentious than the publishing of tax, but unless you also publish the size of income that the tax was paid upon, what is the point?