Toynbee - "tax returns of every citizen must be made public"
Discussion
FarleyRusk said:
I love all the left wing hypocrisy, but I'm not really surprised. I have a socialist work colleague and cornered him with the question as to why he thought it acceptable to have a motorbike hobby when millions are starving out there? Of course he didn't have an answer. I want all lefties to give everything they don't actually need to a good cause before expecting me to part wih mine. I expect hell will freeze over first. Socialism is about control not any notion of egality.
Oh by the way I paid xx,000 in taxes last year, but that's my f
king business, alright?
Nail and head meet dead on. Just to repeat: socialism is all about control; socialists are hypocrites - it's the opposite of freedom, it's about keeping you in your place.Oh by the way I paid xx,000 in taxes last year, but that's my f
king business, alright?Blue62 said:
I know it's a bore, but you need to read through the previous posts, I am not defending this suggestion, just debating it. That aside, this is about publishing tax payments, not looking into financial affairs, you've somewhat distorted it there. There is a further assumption (could be right) that this is about snooping, an alternative view is that it is about recognition of the tax we, as individual citizens, pay and it is not intended to encourage snooping, which people on here tend to think is a bad thing, unless it applies to benefits cheats.
Interestingly, if it is about publishing tax payments and we are in a society which hates others earning more, would this not be an incentive to evade/avoid as much tax as possible so your neighbours don't know that you are earning more than them?I do sometimes think that the British way of life is coming to a sharp end as the bitter, noisy, envious and generally morally weak, corrupt and bereft have far too much say in society.
But this is what happens when you have a population the demands the State wipe their arses and holds out the begging bowl for monies they haven't worked for.
Guybrush said:
Just to repeat: socialism is all about control; socialists are hypocrites - it's the opposite of freedom, it's about keeping you in your place.
So you think all socialists are inherently authoritarian, being massive proponents of Stalinism I suppose? I’d suggest that the inelasticity in intergenerational incomes in the UK if far more effective method of control over individuals than most other state social constructs in British society. It appears to me those with views that are ultra-capitalist or ultra-socialist views haven’t really spent enough time examining or contemplating the complex and irreducible situation that exists in the real world.
I’d like tax returns to be made public but not for the same reasons most other people would.
Quite how a large proportion of the populice have been hoodwinked (by 17 years of Labour government) into beleiving that there is some kind of moral imperative or social good to be had from handing over large amounts of your hard earned cash to a inefficient, morally bankrup and corrupted economic black hole of a governmental system is beyond me.
Put your brains in people, do you really think Whitehall can make better use of your cash than you can? I mean really? If I avoid paying money on taxes I'm not spending the residual on arms, supporting corrupt african leaders or propoing up the landed gentry - I'm buying muffins at starbucks.
Toynbee is driven simply by academic ego and intellectual socialism due to a sheltered and skewed view of the reality of living in 21st century britain, she is a relic of the old university system and elitist thinking, men like Hayek won the argument with these simpletons in the 70's.
You're as well taking religious advice from Yvonne Ridley
Put your brains in people, do you really think Whitehall can make better use of your cash than you can? I mean really? If I avoid paying money on taxes I'm not spending the residual on arms, supporting corrupt african leaders or propoing up the landed gentry - I'm buying muffins at starbucks.
Toynbee is driven simply by academic ego and intellectual socialism due to a sheltered and skewed view of the reality of living in 21st century britain, she is a relic of the old university system and elitist thinking, men like Hayek won the argument with these simpletons in the 70's.
You're as well taking religious advice from Yvonne Ridley
mattnunn said:
Quite how a large proportion of the populice have been hoodwinked (by 17 years of Labour government)...
Surely so far it's only 15 years though
Good points. Busybody interfering governments achieving nothing useful have inspired legions of busybody interfering people who will achieve nothing useful.
mattnunn said:
Quite how a large proportion of the populice have been hoodwinked (by 17 years of Labour government) into beleiving that there is some kind of moral imperative or social good to be had from handing over large amounts of your hard earned cash to a inefficient, morally bankrup and corrupted economic black hole of a governmental system is beyond me.
Put your brains in people, do you really think Whitehall can make better use of your cash than you can? I mean really? If I avoid paying money on taxes I'm not spending the residual on arms, supporting corrupt african leaders or propoing up the landed gentry - I'm buying muffins at starbucks.
Toynbee is driven simply by academic ego and intellectual socialism due to a sheltered and skewed view of the reality of living in 21st century britain, she is a relic of the old university system and elitist thinking, men like Hayek won the argument with these simpletons in the 70's.
You're as well taking religious advice from Yvonne Ridley
You have such a grasp on all things Toynbee, are you a closet fan? I take it that the reference to Hayek preceeds the implosion of Liberal Classicism and the free market in 2008?Put your brains in people, do you really think Whitehall can make better use of your cash than you can? I mean really? If I avoid paying money on taxes I'm not spending the residual on arms, supporting corrupt african leaders or propoing up the landed gentry - I'm buying muffins at starbucks.
Toynbee is driven simply by academic ego and intellectual socialism due to a sheltered and skewed view of the reality of living in 21st century britain, she is a relic of the old university system and elitist thinking, men like Hayek won the argument with these simpletons in the 70's.
You're as well taking religious advice from Yvonne Ridley
Blue62 said:
mattnunn said:
Quite how a large proportion of the populice have been hoodwinked (by 17 years of Labour government) into beleiving that there is some kind of moral imperative or social good to be had from handing over large amounts of your hard earned cash to a inefficient, morally bankrup and corrupted economic black hole of a governmental system is beyond me.
Put your brains in people, do you really think Whitehall can make better use of your cash than you can? I mean really? If I avoid paying money on taxes I'm not spending the residual on arms, supporting corrupt african leaders or propoing up the landed gentry - I'm buying muffins at starbucks.
Toynbee is driven simply by academic ego and intellectual socialism due to a sheltered and skewed view of the reality of living in 21st century britain, she is a relic of the old university system and elitist thinking, men like Hayek won the argument with these simpletons in the 70's.
You're as well taking religious advice from Yvonne Ridley
You have such a grasp on all things Toynbee, are you a closet fan? I take it that the reference to Hayek preceeds the implosion of Liberal Classicism and the free market in 2008?Put your brains in people, do you really think Whitehall can make better use of your cash than you can? I mean really? If I avoid paying money on taxes I'm not spending the residual on arms, supporting corrupt african leaders or propoing up the landed gentry - I'm buying muffins at starbucks.
Toynbee is driven simply by academic ego and intellectual socialism due to a sheltered and skewed view of the reality of living in 21st century britain, she is a relic of the old university system and elitist thinking, men like Hayek won the argument with these simpletons in the 70's.
You're as well taking religious advice from Yvonne Ridley
Again I'll caveat this by saying I don't really know what I'm talking about.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Do the marketing agencies not already have a reasonable idea of how wealthy an individual is, based on postcode and credit card spending?On the other hand, I imagine burglars only care about "stuff", not salary. They can figure that out by looking at what's on the driveway, and peering through the living room window to size up the plasma telly.
I think the biggest issue would be in the workplace, particularly in the service sector. Salaries and bonuses are a delicate subject, and firms go to huge lengths to keep them secret. Making them publicly available would cause a lot of fallout, and give high earners another reason to consider leaving the UK.
My thoughts are "I don't see the point". I could earn next to sweet FA but have a rich aunt who donates her old (year old) flat screen tv to me along with her 59 plate 3 series because she can. You'd have busy bodies reporting you every five minutes because they assume everything must be bought on my wages and anything they don't like I've stolen, fiddled or sold narcotics for. Or is this an excuse for the goverment to take expensive gifts off me because I haven't earned them. Maybe I should restart my post off "I do see the point..." 
DonkeyApple said:
Why not make public the level of household debt? Surely that would be more socially beneficial?
But again why? People would have debt for all manner of reasons. Starting a new company, further education, new car, mortgage, IVF treatment, crack habits. Without reasons it would mean nothing. But even with reasons why would it matter?Miguel Alvarez said:
But again why?
Because the British want to know where they stand in their imaginary hierarchy compared to their neighbours, and it's hard to know whether to look up to or down upon them if you don't know how they funded their acquisition of the trappings of material wealth.Miguel Alvarez said:
DonkeyApple said:
Why not make public the level of household debt? Surely that would be more socially beneficial?
But again why? People would have debt for all manner of reasons. Starting a new company, further education, new car, mortgage, IVF treatment, crack habits. Without reasons it would mean nothing. But even with reasons why would it matter?Afterall, this is about prying into private lives and making ourselves feel superior or having imaginary control over our neighbours.
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