Toynbee - "tax returns of every citizen must be made public"
Discussion
otolith said:
Miguel Alvarez said:
But again why?
Because the British want to know where they stand in their imaginary hierarchy compared to their neighbours, and it's hard to know whether to look up to or down upon them if you don't know how they funded their acquisition of the trappings of material wealth.Basically I have an issue similar to this with one of the missus's mates. Always making snide comments about my wardrobe. Polo this or Polo that. I don't buy clothes often but when I do I like to buy something nice. I don't have credit (except a mortgage) and I own a beat up car and have a big box tube tv. She rents, buys every latest gadget, flat screen TVs has a layabout husband and moans she never has any money. Always going on holiday or going out. The concept of saving doesn't exist to her its either credit so she can get it now or its cheap crap. We could quiet easily earn the same amount for all I know but financial choices mean we're worlds apart in what we own and the lifestyles we live.
Miguel Alvarez said:
Nothing wrong with aspiring. I do it all the time. But publishing how much my next door neighbour pays in tax or even how much they earn doesn't help me do that. I don't know what they do for work for instance. I don't know how many dependents they have or if they have any lodgers. There are so many variables I'm still lost as to the point other than to cause angst amongst people we work with or live with.
Basically I have an issue similar to this with one of the missus's mates. Always making snide comments about my wardrobe. Polo this or Polo that. I don't buy clothes often but when I do I like to buy something nice. I don't have credit (except a mortgage) and I own a beat up car and have a big box tube tv. She rents, buys every latest gadget, flat screen TVs has a layabout husband and moans she never has any money. Always going on holiday or going out. The concept of saving doesn't exist to her its either credit so she can get it now or its cheap crap. We could quiet easily earn the same amount for all I know but financial choices mean we're worlds apart in what we own and the lifestyles we live.
Good post, especially the last sentence in bold.Basically I have an issue similar to this with one of the missus's mates. Always making snide comments about my wardrobe. Polo this or Polo that. I don't buy clothes often but when I do I like to buy something nice. I don't have credit (except a mortgage) and I own a beat up car and have a big box tube tv. She rents, buys every latest gadget, flat screen TVs has a layabout husband and moans she never has any money. Always going on holiday or going out. The concept of saving doesn't exist to her its either credit so she can get it now or its cheap crap. We could quiet easily earn the same amount for all I know but financial choices mean we're worlds apart in what we own and the lifestyles we live.
DonkeyApple said:
Because it is more efficient tool for hatred and contempt than the level of tax a person pays.
Afterall, this is about prying into private lives and making ourselves feel superior or having imaginary control over our neighbours.
I wasn't reading your post that way originally. But this I agree with. Afterall, this is about prying into private lives and making ourselves feel superior or having imaginary control over our neighbours.
DonkeyApple said:
Because it is more efficient tool for hatred and contempt than the level of tax a person pays.
Afterall, this is about prying into private lives and making ourselves feel superior or having imaginary control over our neighbours.
Why would you hate somebody because of the tax they pay?Afterall, this is about prying into private lives and making ourselves feel superior or having imaginary control over our neighbours.
Personally I think we should recognise publicly those people who pay into the system rather than just taking it for granted. They are the ones who pay for all the public services we recieve. If that gives the rest of us an nferiority complex, tough.
There's no merit to knowing what tax somebody else pays. I pay little tax but historically I've paid bucket loads. Do I want some dullard down the street making a judgement on me because his tax bill is bigger than mine? None of his business. Furthermore paying tax is not a virtue, it's the law. I no more respect the guy who pays £1m a year tax than the guy who pays none, as long both are acting within the law and not scrounging. And whether they are or not, it's not my job to speculate.
carmonk said:
There's no merit to knowing what tax somebody else pays. I pay little tax but historically I've paid bucket loads. Do I want some dullard down the street making a judgement on me because his tax bill is bigger than mine? None of his business. Furthermore paying tax is not a virtue, it's the law. I no more respect the guy who pays £1m a year tax than the guy who pays none, as long both are acting within the law and not scrounging. And whether they are or not, it's not my job to speculate.
I can understand why people who are net recipients of the State wouldn't want it publishing. The "I'm not a scrounger because I used to pay loads" is easily addressed - show cumulative tax as well as annual. Regardless of whether it's compulsory or voluntary the fact that some people pay shedloads towards society costs is, in my view, worthy of recognition.The argument against is a bit like giving everybody a prize on school sports day.
Countdown said:
The argument against is a bit like giving everybody a prize on school sports day.
The arguments against publishing private information are compelling.Not sure if you were likening that to 'all must have prizes' but if so then the link is tenuous at best. More like 'all must have their noses in the affairs of other people' and that's about as unworthy as it gets.
Countdown said:
carmonk said:
There's no merit to knowing what tax somebody else pays. I pay little tax but historically I've paid bucket loads. Do I want some dullard down the street making a judgement on me because his tax bill is bigger than mine? None of his business. Furthermore paying tax is not a virtue, it's the law. I no more respect the guy who pays £1m a year tax than the guy who pays none, as long both are acting within the law and not scrounging. And whether they are or not, it's not my job to speculate.
I can understand why people who are net recipients of the State wouldn't want it publishing. The "I'm not a scrounger because I used to pay loads" is easily addressed - show cumulative tax as well as annual. Regardless of whether it's compulsory or voluntary the fact that some people pay shedloads towards society costs is, in my view, worthy of recognition.The argument against is a bit like giving everybody a prize on school sports day.
Countdown said:
carmonk said:
There's no merit to knowing what tax somebody else pays. I pay little tax but historically I've paid bucket loads. Do I want some dullard down the street making a judgement on me because his tax bill is bigger than mine? None of his business. Furthermore paying tax is not a virtue, it's the law. I no more respect the guy who pays £1m a year tax than the guy who pays none, as long both are acting within the law and not scrounging. And whether they are or not, it's not my job to speculate.
I can understand why people who are net recipients of the State wouldn't want it publishing. The "I'm not a scrounger because I used to pay loads" is easily addressed - show cumulative tax as well as annual. Regardless of whether it's compulsory or voluntary the fact that some people pay shedloads towards society costs is, in my view, worthy of recognition.The argument against is a bit like giving everybody a prize on school sports day.
Miguel Alvarez said:
We could quiet easily earn the same amount for all I know but financial choices mean we're worlds apart in what we own and the lifestyles we live.
All comes down to whether you deem standard of living or quality of life to be more important. I've worked and saved over the last few years, with the aim of being mortgage free by the time I turn forty (not as distant as it once was...). I could quite easily have used those savings to have a much more "stuff" based lifestyle, but in recent years it's just become less and less appealing. Some of the conversations at work are quite depressing in that regard. Everyone seems hellbent on iPhones, Mercs, designer labels, golf clubs and whatnot. No issue with that if you can afford it, but it seems to have become the only thing these people want to be defined by, which strikes me as a touch, well, shallow? They just seem to be locked in an arms race of constantly trying to outdo each other for no apparent end. I know, a most un-PH stance, but it bugs me.carmonk said:
collateral said:
Don't car tax disks say on them how much they cost? Should I be worried about this gross invasion of my privacy?
No.
Indeed.
Tax disc rates are published and widely available, so the sums involved aren't private in the first place - there's no invasion of privacy to be concerned about, neither minuscule nor gross.
Publishing tax take and earnings would be great.
Aside from sales taxes, many other taxes are optional if you know your way around the finance act. Publishing tax returns would I expect *reduce* the tax take. Rather than frighten people away from tax avoidance (which lets not forget is legal), it would simply highlight that it's actually really not that difficult. Which would make my life somewhat easier.
I'm all for it. But of course, to engage in the national sport of MP bashing, I would add the caveat - lead from the front ladies and gents. Publish *all* of your finances first and the rest of us will follow.
Aside from sales taxes, many other taxes are optional if you know your way around the finance act. Publishing tax returns would I expect *reduce* the tax take. Rather than frighten people away from tax avoidance (which lets not forget is legal), it would simply highlight that it's actually really not that difficult. Which would make my life somewhat easier.
I'm all for it. But of course, to engage in the national sport of MP bashing, I would add the caveat - lead from the front ladies and gents. Publish *all* of your finances first and the rest of us will follow.
6fire said:
Publish *all* of your finances first and the rest of us will follow.
Why compulsion? Why wait?I realise you said you want an example to follow so this isn't aimed at you - but as some other people are so keen there's no reason not to go ahead now.
If it's such a good idea etc.
The Times could instigate a new column for financial flashers, they'd clean up with all the champagne socialists like Toynbee falling over themselves to divulge personal finances.
turbobloke said:
Why compulsion? Why wait?
I realise you said you want an example to follow so this isn't aimed at you - but as some other people are so keen there's no reason not to go ahead now.
If it's such a good idea etc.
The Times could instigate a new column for financial flashers, they'd clean up with all the champagne socialists like Toynbee falling over themselves to divulge personal finances.
Unless you have compulsion you won't get 100% take up. Therefore the system isn't 'fair' and will lead to people making assumptions about those MPs who don't publish their finances. Some MPs may decline to publish not because they are doing something fishy, but because they believe that they shouldn't be compelled to do so.I realise you said you want an example to follow so this isn't aimed at you - but as some other people are so keen there's no reason not to go ahead now.
If it's such a good idea etc.
The Times could instigate a new column for financial flashers, they'd clean up with all the champagne socialists like Toynbee falling over themselves to divulge personal finances.
It should either be by compulsion or not at all IMO.
OK but it wasn't really aimed at you as stated in my post, and in your original - to which I was replying - there was only one mention of MPs (bashing) so there was a degree of ambiguity as to whether the call to arms was possibly aimed at the wider public.
6fire said:
Publishing tax take and earnings would be great.
Aside from sales taxes, many other taxes are optional if you know your way around the finance act. Publishing tax returns would I expect *reduce* the tax take. Rather than frighten people away from tax avoidance (which lets not forget is legal), it would simply highlight that it's actually really not that difficult. Which would make my life somewhat easier.
I'm all for it. But of course, to engage in the national sport of MP bashing, I would add the caveat - lead from the front ladies and gents. Publish *all* of your finances first and the rest of us will follow.
There's no reason for MPs or anyone to divulge tax returns in my view, it's private information which need only concern HMRC. As to MPs they need to sort the Register of Interests not to mention lessons for spin doctors on filling in mortgage applications.Aside from sales taxes, many other taxes are optional if you know your way around the finance act. Publishing tax returns would I expect *reduce* the tax take. Rather than frighten people away from tax avoidance (which lets not forget is legal), it would simply highlight that it's actually really not that difficult. Which would make my life somewhat easier.
I'm all for it. But of course, to engage in the national sport of MP bashing, I would add the caveat - lead from the front ladies and gents. Publish *all* of your finances first and the rest of us will follow.
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