The death of the pension?
Discussion
groak said:
eharding said:
On the other hand, Groakster - how do you go about drumming up new business when things get a bit slow?
Stick your head out of the window, and threaten members of the general public in the street below with a pine-cone dipped in Dave's Insanity Sauce up the jacksie if they don't immediately dive into your retail establishment and part company with large quantities of wonga for whatever tat you're selling today?
I hate cold-callers as much as you do, probably more so. There are areas of enterprise where it is a necessary evil though. I just pity the poor sods who have to do it.
I don't hate cold callers. Fuxake, I've GOT a callcentre! And because I've got a callcentre as well as a history in telesales going right back to my own Thomson training in the early'70's I know a great deal about telecan....from writing the scripts to training the staff to even supplying the products for both inbound and outbound, and I can tell you the effective strike rate for many many products using telecan from live stat and data. Outbound is so yesteryear it's a virtual near death experience. If I told you the positive response from, say, coldcall advertising sales in the '70's you'd say I was lying. And I operated telecan in financial services from '89 to '93, and again from '07 to '09 and trust me....the positive responses to the appointment making sale show a steady year on year drop that hasn't stopped declining since the 60's or so when the yanks first invented the concept! The freak on this thread reckons he spends £30kpa on cold calling. Inhouse that buys you 1 mid-level ability canvasser plus the costs of the op. Or about 1500 'chair hours' if you're outsourcing to a centre. That's a peanut spend. Strictly smalltime. None the less, 99% of the calls will be no-sales. On pensions, if the canvassers are any good, they'll get an appointment from one in every hundred calls they make. Not a sale...just an appointment. That's why these days it's rare to get a financial services telesales call. Because it's NOT cost effective. Sheeesh! Even the sharks in PPI claims know that, which is why, these days, almost all of them use callbots instead of canvassers. TBH they're slightly less annoying than the humans, because you just immediately ring off when the bot-spiel begins. Stick your head out of the window, and threaten members of the general public in the street below with a pine-cone dipped in Dave's Insanity Sauce up the jacksie if they don't immediately dive into your retail establishment and part company with large quantities of wonga for whatever tat you're selling today?
I hate cold-callers as much as you do, probably more so. There are areas of enterprise where it is a necessary evil though. I just pity the poor sods who have to do it.
of all the things I have done over the years for business telesales has been by far the simplest and fastest way to go from introduction to client.
though just realised I am discussing business and finance with a payday loan operator who'll happily live on state pension....so this all may be a tad pointless!
anonymous said:
[redacted]
agree - as I said, its only ONE reason. Still, it's not the norm for people to talk positively about their equity investments. It happens with BTL because its a more visible exercise anyway. And negative talk happens more readily too "my pension is rubbish" is prob quite normal.I do very little work with people putting money in pensions afreesh. 99% is transferring old pensions somewhere better.
That said, if you are a higher rate tax payer there are still big gains to be had despite the inflexibility of a pension. I have no issue with people going for equity ISAs over pension....they give up tax relief for more options later on....right or wrong? who knows, but a fair gamble. But people going to cash ISAs because they used a duff pension would be wise to see what decent funds have averaged before settling on 2/3% pa
Tiggsy said:
agree - as I said, its only ONE reason. Still, it's not the norm for people to talk positively about their equity investments. It happens with BTL because its a more visible exercise anyway. And negative talk happens more readily too "my pension is rubbish" is prob quite normal.
I do very little work with people putting money in pensions afreesh. 99% is transferring old pensions somewhere better.
That said, if you are a higher rate tax payer there are still big gains to be had despite the inflexibility of a pension. I have no issue with people going for equity ISAs over pension....they give up tax relief for more options later on....right or wrong? who knows, but a fair gamble. But people going to cash ISAs because they used a duff pension would be wise to see what decent funds have averaged before settling on 2/3% pa
You clearly know your stuff about pensions, so I hope you don't mind answering a couple of generic questions...I do very little work with people putting money in pensions afreesh. 99% is transferring old pensions somewhere better.
That said, if you are a higher rate tax payer there are still big gains to be had despite the inflexibility of a pension. I have no issue with people going for equity ISAs over pension....they give up tax relief for more options later on....right or wrong? who knows, but a fair gamble. But people going to cash ISAs because they used a duff pension would be wise to see what decent funds have averaged before settling on 2/3% pa
A lot of my Friends have seen parents pensions become worth far less than was estimated when they started - some I know have been endowment based, which I know are supposed ot be s
t, but don't know why - are these the same as the 'unit linked' ones you've mentioned?Fatboy said:
A lot of my Friends have seen parents pensions become worth far less than was estimated when they started - some I know have been endowment based, which I know are supposed ot be st, but don't know why - are these the same as the 'unit linked' ones you've mentioned?
Forget the detail. Broadly speaking any sort of pension except the old-fashioned (or council worker) "final salary" type will inevitably involve some level of uncertainty as to what it will actually be worth when you come to retire. Life's like that.t, but don't know why - are these the same as the 'unit linked' ones you've mentioned?The big problem with pensions is that people don't understand what they're buying.
The BIGGEST problem with pensions is that most of the IFAs and other blood-suckers have no interest in helping people understand. In fact it's in their interests to make things seem as complicated as possible, thus reinforcing perceptions of their own importance while they push the products which earn themselves the highest commission.
fandango_c said:
A traditional pension will do it. You just have to contribute in enough in order to get the benefits.
Yes, that's exactly the point.A good way to make the point for unbelievers is, "You can't expect to pay in 5% of your salary for 25 years and then draw out 50% of your salary for 25 years!"
So surely there's SOMEBODY amongst the PH massif who has faithfully paid contributions month after month into a private pension plan over 30/40/even 50 years, and has ended up with a smile on their face and a great retirement pension....come on guys n gals......is there even ONE???????
Surely between all these IFAs, authorised tied reps, other certified professionals etc etc who've supplied millions of these policies over the decades, they've created something satisfactory for even ONE retired soul?
Surely between all these IFAs, authorised tied reps, other certified professionals etc etc who've supplied millions of these policies over the decades, they've created something satisfactory for even ONE retired soul?
groak said:
Anyway. I'm recently back in 'financial services' in a way. Payday loans and cheque cashing. We have bought a high street shop and stuck a big fascia board on it with 'PAYDAY LOANS' and 'CHEQUE CASHING' and the phone number all in 18 inch high lettering. And the shop is being fitted and isn't even open yet, and the number of calls diverting to my mobile and now referrals (because people certainly do talk to each other about financial matters) means there ain't going to be a dime spent on any form of marketing for a very long time. The demand for fast money and cheque cashing is MASSIVE.
What do you do when a cheque bounces? I know someone who rinsed The Money Shop for £5k five years ago and afaik there was fk all they could do about it. The conversation went like this;
The Money Shop: You've stopped these cheques for so and so
Employer: That's right, we found out he was selling bent so his deals fell through, the customers have been refunded and he's been sacked
The Money Shop: You can't do that, it's his wages
Employer: No, it's his commission, and as those deals no longer exist, neither does his commission
The Money Shop: but... but we've paid him
Employer: Well that's your problem, goodbye
- click*
Tiggsy said:
I pay £3000 per month to be supplied with 10 appointmennts with business owners with pension funds over a certain size.
£3000 a month for 10 apps!!! Holy stEdited by Oakey on Saturday 21st April 12:35
Oakey said:
groak said:
Anyway. I'm recently back in 'financial services' in a way. Payday loans and cheque cashing. We have bought a high street shop and stuck a big fascia board on it with 'PAYDAY LOANS' and 'CHEQUE CASHING' and the phone number all in 18 inch high lettering. And the shop is being fitted and isn't even open yet, and the number of calls diverting to my mobile and now referrals (because people certainly do talk to each other about financial matters) means there ain't going to be a dime spent on any form of marketing for a very long time. The demand for fast money and cheque cashing is MASSIVE.
What do you do when a cheque bounces? I know someone who rinsed The Money Shop for £5k five years ago and afaik there was fk all they could do about it. The conversation went like this;
The Money Shop: You've stopped these cheques for so and so
Employer: That's right, we found out he was selling bent so his deals fell through, the customers have been refunded and he's been sacked
The Money Shop: You can't do that, it's his wages
Employer: No, it's his commission, and as those deals no longer exist, neither does his commission
The Money Shop: but... but we've paid him
Employer: Well that's your problem, goodbye
- click*
Not everybody gets cash over the counter for any old cheque. There's a spectrum of quality of paper.
Some people are told to come back for the money once the cheque has been cashed.
Some cheques are verified when they're presented to us.
Legal/court processes are available for the pursuit of defaulters.
But, most importantly, it's in some senses a 'numbers game'. So the eye-wateringly high fees are somewhat diluted when the bouncers are subtracted. We play the percentages, if you like.
We're also strictly smalltime. Deliberately there to service a local area. That means we're always aware of who the customer is, and they are almost always either known to us or referred to us by people who know us. Exceptions are dealt with differently. For example, you, who are a total stranger, stroll in with lower grade paper (company cheque, for instance). I'll need your id verified, your residence verified, and I might ask you to wait for payment or only advance part, and that's AFTER contacting the signatory and verifying authenticity and any potential default circumstances such as the one you described. I might even, depending on the deal, ask for some security. A watch. Spare car key. Whatever.
On the loan side, we're in no small part there to take over the business of the local illegal moneylenders. Our rates are better so we certainly will have their entire business as soon as the word gets round, which it has obviously already done and that's before the shop's even open.
Doubt very much if it'll ever come to marketing or multibranches. The business plan is to take as much as possible from a certain locality of about 100-150000 people.
In this case the salesman in question was an established Money Shop customer, he'd had to complete the money laundering regs form a few times he'd cashed that many cheques with them. This was what allowed him to cash £5k's worth of cheques in quick succession. Unfortunately they just could not get their head around it after we'd stopped the cheques and refused to pay them and that because at one time way back when they'd phoned the office and authorised the cheque cashing with the receptionsist didn't mean we were obligated to honour every cheque thereafter.
They clearly never got their money back because five years on I still get calls from The Money Shop asking for that salesman!
They clearly never got their money back because five years on I still get calls from The Money Shop asking for that salesman!
groak said:
So surely there's SOMEBODY amongst the PH massif who has faithfully paid contributions month after month into a private pension plan over 30/40/even 50 years, and has ended up with a smile on their face and a great retirement pension....come on guys n gals......is there even ONE???????
Surely between all these IFAs, authorised tied reps, other certified professionals etc etc who've supplied millions of these policies over the decades, they've created something satisfactory for even ONE retired soul?
Like I suggested earlier, why would any sane person want to invest their hard earn't into a scheme administrated by a group of professional investors that are unable to provide adequate assurances of the investment outcome? Since the 1970's we have seen time and again the utter dismal performances of Companies that seem to have nothing much to offer. Surely between all these IFAs, authorised tied reps, other certified professionals etc etc who've supplied millions of these policies over the decades, they've created something satisfactory for even ONE retired soul?
crankedup said:
Like I suggested earlier, why would any sane person want to invest their hard earn't into a scheme administrated by a group of professional investors that are unable to provide adequate assurances of the investment outcome? Since the 1970's we have seen time and again the utter dismal performances of Companies that seem to have nothing much to offer.
If you invest in risky assets, the investment return can't be guaranteed. There's no such thing as a crystal. Ball that predicts the future.Since the 1970s (and prior to this), we have also seen time and time again good performances of companies that seem to have a lot to offer.
crankedup said:
Like I suggested earlier, why would any sane person want to invest their hard earn't into a scheme administrated by a group of professional investors that are unable to provide adequate assurances of the investment outcome? Since the 1970's we have seen time and again the utter dismal performances of Companies that seem to have nothing much to offer.
See! Even a silly old cock like you knows very well that personal private pensions are a total waste of time. Other, that is, than for the army of parasites who feed off their sales, their administration, and their regulation. 'Professional' is a really misused word these days. I even saw it mis-spelled on a sign above a shop the other day. The usual. Two 'f's. Made me laugh!
Of course there ARE investment professionals. But they're not working for me and you...and they're certainly not paying telecan teams to make cold call appointments to bank up their victim numbers. They're too busy making money for themselves!!
Pensions. You work hard, plan and save wisely then hit your old age and find you need medical care. All the money you saved and the luxuries you missed out on when you were young enough to enjoy them now goes into paying for your healthcare until the state kicks in when it finally runs out.
Surely the sensible alternative is to invest in coke, fags and hookers now so you don't live till you're pissing your pants on a daily basis in a care home?
Surely the sensible alternative is to invest in coke, fags and hookers now so you don't live till you're pissing your pants on a daily basis in a care home?
BliarOut said:
Surely the sensible alternative is to invest in coke, fags and hookers now so you don't live till you're pissing your pants on a daily basis in a care home?
Well, that's what the fools tend to say.Imagine you're walking the high wire across the grand canyon and you have a choice of safety net. Either the one you bought and fitted yourself or the one the council said they might be able to put up for you all being well etc etc....
By the time most people on PH get to retirement there will be so many oldsters creaking around that the state simply won't be able to afford to provide very much for them at all. So best take some sensible pills and start saving/investing.
BliarOut said:
Surely the real fools die with a large amount in the bank? 
It could also be argued that it's foolish to assume you'll arrive in your eighties in rude health. Chances are you won't...
It a good point, there's a lot that you can't do at 70/80 that you can do when you're younger. It could also be argued that it's foolish to assume you'll arrive in your eighties in rude health. Chances are you won't...crankedup said:
Robert Maxwell was the first corporate thief to stick his greasy hands into workers pensions IIRC. That was topped by Thatcher declaring Companies would be permitted to take 'Pension Holidays', yet another brilliant Thatcher policy
Sick of saying this, in many cases pension holidays were forced on schemes because they were, in the eyes of the revenue, overfunded.No argument was accepted that bad times can follow good investment trading times, you had to take pension holidays and improve benefits.
Then along came Winky, recession, changes in accounting rules how pensions had to be shown, increased longevity and so on. Meanwhile Govt continues to follow a set of rules different from the ones imppose on others.
Plus of course idiots with huge chips on their shoulder continue to post inaccurate rubbish like you have just done despite being repeatedly told you are wrong.
Frankly it's beyond tiresome.
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