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JonRB

Original Poster:

39,480 posts

141 months

[news] 
Saturday 5th May 2012 quote quote all
A triumph of stupidity over common sense.

Whereas the world should collectively be thinking "fk me, a 40 year old reactor design withstood all of that, think how safe nuclear power is, and how much safer modern designs must be", instead they're wanting to shut them all down.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-17967202

powerstroke

1,720 posts

29 months

[news] 
Saturday 5th May 2012 quote quote all
JonRB said:
A triumph of stupidity over common sense.

Whereas the world should collectively be thinking "fk me, a 40 year old reactor design withstood all of that, think how safe nuclear power is, and how much safer modern designs must be", instead they're wanting to shut them all down.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-17967202
Yep stupid !! and there isnt much down for there economy without cheap and plentyfull energy, Im no expert but it seems japanese companys are off shoreing manufacturing for instance not one of the pick up trucks are made in japan anymore its gone to thailand , south africa and spain now !! we would do well to take note and not make the same mistake HMMM....tumbleweed

speedy_thrills

5,660 posts

112 months

[news] 
Saturday 5th May 2012 quote quote all
How cheap is nuclear though when you consider the full cost from digging Uranium to decommissioning plants? I see a lot of talk of cheap and plentiful energy but investors always seem very cautious (Like RWE and E.On pulling out in the UK).

powerstroke

1,720 posts

29 months

[news] 
Saturday 5th May 2012 quote quote all
speedy_thrills said:
How cheap is nuclear though when you consider the full cost from digging Uranium to decommissioning plants? I see a lot of talk of cheap and plentiful energy but investors always seem very cautious (Like RWE and E.On pulling out in the UK).
Yes but would you rather have subsidised something that works 24/7 and keeps the lights on and people warm or subsidy for rich people to have windmills...???

Silver Smudger

1,333 posts

36 months

[news] 
Saturday 5th May 2012 quote quote all
speedy_thrills said:
I see a lot of talk of cheap and plentiful energy but investors always seem very cautious (Like RWE and E.On pulling out in the UK).
Probably more to do with not knowing which way the UK politicians are going to jump next, with regards to energy policy.
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AlfaFoxtrot

397 posts

67 months

[news] 
Saturday 5th May 2012 quote quote all
speedy_thrills said:
How cheap is nuclear though when you consider the full cost from digging Uranium to decommissioning plants? I see a lot of talk of cheap and plentiful energy but investors always seem very cautious (Like RWE and E.On pulling out in the UK).
RWE and Eon arguably aren't pulling out of the Horizons venture because nuclear is fundamentally un-economic, RWE in particular is taking a big hit in Germany where the nuclear plants are being forced to close, and coupled with the economic climate the large up front capital costs are too much.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_electricity_b...

Estimates have large error margins, and it's difficult to compare as it is never a level playing field (subsidies, tax breaks etc.). Gas still takes some beating, and the new plants are highly efficient. Depending on how important you think it is to reduce CO2 emissions and/or reduce dependence on imported fuels, then gas isn't a long term option. From the Wiki page, wind seems to come out at a similar cost to nuclear - but this is comparing apples with oranges as nuclear has a 90% capacity factor vs. 33% for wind, and that difference has to be made up with a mix of energy storage and backup generation, neither of which is cheap!

But re: the original article - all of the plants in Japan have had to shutdown and go through stringent safety checks, which IMO isn't a bad thing (although not necessarily what the economy needs right now). The anti-nuke camp is jumping on the opportunity to make sure that they don't get switched back on though, which is going to cost Japan a lot (as well as being considerably worse for public health and the environment than nuclear ever will be!) as they will have to import a shed load of fossil fuel to make up the ~30% shortfall.

GregE240

10,749 posts

136 months

[news] 
Saturday 5th May 2012 quote quote all
Bit blinkered. And what are they gonna replace it with? It's either that, or a huge power deficit.

They'll all be sat around eating in the dark.

Edinburger

2,327 posts

37 months

[news] 
Saturday 5th May 2012 quote quote all
Not really - nucleur power provides less than 30% of Japan's power .

And dont you think theyve had their fair share of 'issues' with nucleur...

GregE240 said:
Bit blinkered. And what are they gonna replace it with? It's either that, or a huge power deficit.

They'll all be sat around eating in the dark.

eldar

6,995 posts

65 months

[news] 
Saturday 5th May 2012 quote quote all
Edinburger said:
Not really - nucleur power provides less than 30% of Japan's power .

And dont you think theyve had their fair share of 'issues' with nucleur...

GregE240 said:
Bit blinkered. And what are they gonna replace it with? It's either that, or a huge power deficit.

They'll all be sat around eating in the dark.
Those bloody Frenchsmile

They are already sitting around in the dark to a degree, leccy is in short supply at the moment.

The closure is a political decision they will probably regret in 5 years. Uranium is plentiful, and very price stable and predictable from politically stable countries.

Closing reactors is just making their nuclear legacy issues worse and expensive (with the UK benefiting!)

Blib

20,649 posts

66 months

[news] 
Saturday 5th May 2012 quote quote all
What I found totally confounding was Germany's knee-jerk reaction to close all of their reactors in response to Fukushima. Brave or foolhardy?

Brother D

847 posts

45 months

[news] 
Saturday 5th May 2012 quote quote all
I watched idiocracy last night. I think we are almost there... By that I mean decisions being made by people with a severe lack of understanding. Can someone refresh my memory on those killed by nuclear power vs coal mining on an annual basis?

AlfaFoxtrot

397 posts

67 months

[news] 
Saturday 5th May 2012 quote quote all
Blib said:
What I found totally confounding was Germany's knee-jerk reaction to close all of their reactors in response to Fukushima. Brave or foolhardy?
I've been to a few talks on nuclear/renewables from people in the industry and there seems to be a general opinion that if anyone can make it work on a big scale, it will be the Germans - it's an interesting country-scale control group. They probably can make it work, it's just going to be very, very expensive. There is plenty of rooftop solar already installed, and potential for lots of wind energy in the North Sea (although this has to be transmitted to the industrial south, and the infrastructure currently isn't there). I don't know what % of renewables they are aiming for or how they plan to smooth out the generation (although I suspect they have more interconnections than we do?).

Clearly Germany's nuclear plants aren't in much danger of a tsunami, they and neighbouring France have been using them for >30 years without any problems so it wasn't at all logical. The decision wasn't based on a rational scientific/engineering discussion, it was politically driven. Merkel got away with giving all the nukes a life extension in late 2010 but in the regional elections after Fukushima, the Greens and anti-nuclear sentiment in general gave her party a bit of a bloody nose so she reversed the decision and they'll all be shut down by 2020ish.

Trumpeted a lot less by the Greens is that Germany is planning to build some truly filthy brown coal power stations (cos the coal is cheap), plans for which have been brought forward to offset the drop in nuclear generation. There is some notional investment for 'clean coal', but it's just to put positive spin on it. And again, they will do far more damage to the environment and public health than nuclear ever could.

http://thegwpf.org/international-news/5536-germany...

hedgefinder

1,427 posts

39 months

[news] 
Saturday 5th May 2012 quote quote all
Brother D said:
I watched idiocracy last night. I think we are almost there... By that I mean decisions being made by people with a severe lack of understanding. Can someone refresh my memory on those killed by nuclear power vs coal mining on an annual basis?
then again I wasnt aware that an accident or terrorist attack on a coal mining facility could cause that many deaths from one incident nor make a large part of the country unlivable for generations to come.... but hey ho its worth the risk, let the next generation worry about decomissioning and the storage of all that waste radioactive material....and the inevitable attempts at a terrorist attack.

I also think the comment about those killed on an annual basis is utterly ridiculous by the way.. probably more poeple killed and their descendants by on incident at Chernobyl than mining in the last 50 years ffs...

Edited by hedgefinder on Saturday 5th May 20:19

eldar

6,995 posts

65 months

[news] 
Saturday 5th May 2012 quote quote all
hedgefinder said:
I also think the comment about those killed on an annual basis is utterly ridiculous by the way.. probably more poeple killed and their descendants by on incident at Chernobyl than mining in the last 50 years ffs...

Edited by hedgefinder on Saturday 5th May 20:19
How many were killed by Chernobyl?

Rollin

2,247 posts

114 months

[news] 
Saturday 5th May 2012 quote quote all
Are the Japanese stopping people from moving back into any area which could be hit by a tsunami?

wattsie_2004

177 posts

58 months

[news] 
Saturday 5th May 2012 quote quote all
eldar said:
hedgefinder said:
I also think the comment about those killed on an annual basis is utterly ridiculous by the way.. probably more poeple killed and their descendants by on incident at Chernobyl than mining in the last 50 years ffs...

Edited by hedgefinder on Saturday 5th May 20:19
How many were killed by Chernobyl?
About 65.

JonRB

Original Poster:

39,480 posts

141 months

[news] 
Saturday 5th May 2012 quote quote all
hedgefinder said:
I also think the comment about those killed on an annual basis is utterly ridiculous by the way.. probably more poeple killed and their descendants by on incident at Chernobyl than mining in the last 50 years ffs...
I'd very much like to see you cite your sources on that. As far as I am aware, direct deaths attributed to Chernobyl are more in the region of the amount of people killed in coal mining accidents per annum.


rhinochopig

16,055 posts

67 months

[news] 
Saturday 5th May 2012 quote quote all
50 to 100,000 Americans die because of particulate air pollution, the biggest cause of which is CPPs.

Even taking the max predicted death toll from Chernobyl, you'd about 1 Chernobyl accident every three weeks to equate to the deaths from fossil fuels.

Mr_B

4,740 posts

112 months

[news] 
Sunday 6th May 2012 quote quote all
How have the replaced the 30% provided by nuclear reactors in a year ? Just seem like a big hole to fill in a short space of time.

Brother D

847 posts

45 months

[news] 
Sunday 6th May 2012 quote quote all
hedgefinder said:
Brother D said:
I watched idiocracy last night. I think we are almost there... By that I mean decisions being made by people with a severe lack of understanding. Can someone refresh my memory on those killed by nuclear power vs coal mining on an annual basis?
then again I wasnt aware that an accident or terrorist attack on a coal mining facility could cause that many deaths from one incident nor make a large part of the country unlivable for generations to come.... but hey ho its worth the risk, let the next generation worry about decomissioning and the storage of all that waste radioactive material....and the inevitable attempts at a terrorist attack.

I also think the comment about those killed on an annual basis is utterly ridiculous by the way.. probably more poeple killed and their descendants by on incident at Chernobyl than mining in the last 50 years ffs...

Edited by hedgefinder on Saturday 5th May 20:19
If you can quote your sources rather than your own assumptions that would be good. There is a fairly straight forward solution to the waste disposal, which is internment deep underground, preferably in a subduction zone, but the concern is thousands of years someone may accidently mine that area. Frankly I'd prefer solutions created by those in the know ie nuclear scientists/mining engineers, rather than people informed by opinion. Last time I checked I failed to note any decisions made by politicians with a doctorate in nuclear engineering?
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