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bitchstewie

Original Poster:

8,765 posts

79 months

[news] 
Saturday 5th May 2012 quote quote all
Not sure if it's just the news making a mountain of a molehill but apparently headteachers were up in arms at the idea of Ofsted inspections being unannounced.

Gove has apparently backtracked on it.

So what's the big deal about unannounced inspections?

Rollin

2,245 posts

114 months

[news] 
Saturday 5th May 2012 quote quote all
Either it doesn't give them time to make things look good, or it would cause a huge, unexpected disruption to a schools day.

I would suspect the latter.

Getragdogleg

3,665 posts

52 months

[news] 
Saturday 5th May 2012 quote quote all
What ? They are booked inspections ? I have always assumed it was like a proper check up done at random.

What the hell is the point then ?

At my secondary school in the mid 80s the teachers would often arrive late and badly dressed in th emorning, set us some reading (unsupervised piss about time) and sod off and make coffee, get sorted and return half an hour later to make sure we had not killed each other.

I thought the whole idea of inspectors was to inspect and see what the standards really were, not view some booked parade of acting.

st like this is why a lot of children are getting a bad education, even the crappest teacher can straighten up for a one day planned visit.

Should be random, totally random. I don't get told if VOSA are about to come to my yard and look at all my trucks, I don't get to book the health and safety visits or organise a VAT inspection so I keep it all as tip top as I can and hope that if I am making mistakes I can show I tried and can sort it out.

Yet another example of the cosseted existance of the teaching profession in modern Britain.

TwigtheWonderkid

6,027 posts

19 months

[news] 
Saturday 5th May 2012 quote quote all
Schools get about 3 days notice. Probably not long enough to carry out changes that will effect the outcome, but long enough for the head and other senior staff to cancel other meetings and obligations that they might have booked and be on hand to deal with the Ofsted inspectors, who expect those staff to be there during the inspection to answer questions.

Otispunkmeyer

2,785 posts

24 months

[news] 
Saturday 5th May 2012 quote quote all
Might disrupt their school day not being able to plan around the distractions... However, even at my secondary school (which at the time was very good for a state comprehensive, headed by Sir John Rowling http://www.pixl.org.uk/_files/76D72F87F0ECC020D3D9... ) I remember special emphasis put on the days when ofsted were in town.

I have to say though, while their was some element of putting on a show, The day generally didn't feel any different to normal.
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turbobloke

55,474 posts

129 months

[news] 
Saturday 5th May 2012 quote quote all
This is what the Gove-rnment has said, apparently:

"People fear that no-notice inspection sends a message that we don't trust the profession, that Ofsted has become an arm of the Spanish Inquisition or Sean Connery's Untouchables, that they have to be ready to storm in without any notice in order to deal with something that has gone drastically wrong - that was never the intention. In this process of consultation Michael Wilshaw is clear that he is listening to the profession. That is why when we come back after the consultation it will be clear that we have listened to the principle that has been articulated that teachers and head deserve to have the chance to know when an Ofsted inspection is coming and to be there in order to present the best face of the school - that message has been heard."

Link to coverage 7-ish hours old:

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/education-17968468

However:

"Announcing the move in January, Sir Michael said no-notice inspections were a "logical" progression and that it was important parents had confidence in the system. Mr Gove said the move would provide parents with a "true picture" of schools' performance."

So, true picture or fake picture?

martin84

5,366 posts

22 months

[news] 
Saturday 5th May 2012 quote quote all
Michael Gove has been one of the few beams of competence in this Coalition in my view and he's taken the right decision to drop these proposals if that is indeed what he does. The current system turns up many failing schools as it is so its not like schools are currently able to hide their problems. I would imagine the main reason to oppose unannounced inspections is the sheer impracticality of it. All of the key people the inspectors want to meet need to be available for the inspection, its no good an inspector suddenly turning up as the headteacher has a meeting with someone else who's travelled a long way or as the school is about to leave on a field trip. Its just not practical.

Currently they get three days notice, what could they really do in three days? Radically alter teaching methods to improve student performance? Hardly. Its just three days for everybody to make room in their diaries. The most you could fix with three days notice involves a hoover and I'm sure inspectors arent stupid, they know schools have had notice and will portray its best face possible. They're trained to see through that and get answers.

Matthen

355 posts

20 months

[news] 
Saturday 5th May 2012 quote quote all
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Schools get about 3 days notice. Probably not long enough to carry out changes that will effect the outcome, but long enough for the head and other senior staff to cancel other meetings and obligations that they might have booked and be on hand to deal with the Ofsted inspectors, who expect those staff to be there during the inspection to answer questions.
Wrong. In the school a relative works at, as a lsa, they all get pulled of regular duties to sort out whichever dept. is being inspected, for example, sorting a ton of worksheets in the "RE" dept into students folders, marking the books, tidying up and otherwise making the school look better. It is also a common occurrence for teachers who are not up to scratch and are constantly having the senior management team called to there lessons to be told to be "ill" during the OFSTED check, because cover lessons are not inspected. Also, the three days is more than enough for teachers who normally make lessons up as they go along, to sit down, make plans and organise themselves.

The whole inspection system is a joke, surprise investigations are the only way that the substandard teachers will be found, and routed out.

davepoth

19,862 posts

68 months

[news] 
Saturday 5th May 2012 quote quote all
Why can't inspections be unannounced?

Unions.

turbobloke

55,474 posts

129 months

[news] 
Saturday 5th May 2012 quote quote all
If prison Governors don't get notice, which I think is the case, then like headteachers they may be out on a course or visiting another prison but inspections take place...perhaps Governors are only rarely out on a jolly.

The idea that the leader of an institution should be present for an inspection is the most compelling reason I can see for having a short period of notice. Surely the inspectors will want to grill the head honcho.

Getragdogleg

3,665 posts

52 months

[news] 
Saturday 5th May 2012 quote quote all
turbobloke said:
This is what the Gove-rnment has said, apparently:

"People fear that no-notice inspection sends a message that we don't trust the profession, that Ofsted has become an arm of the Spanish Inquisition."
There are hundreds of professions that get spot checks with no notice, mine is one of them, so essentially it's ok to hassle us and not trust us but you can't touch schools ?

TwigtheWonderkid

6,027 posts

19 months

[news] 
Saturday 5th May 2012 quote quote all
Matthen said:
The whole inspection system is a joke, surprise investigations are the only way that the substandard teachers will be found, and routed out.
But Ofsted inspections do root out substandard teachers, sub standard heads and sub standard schools. You seem to think Ofsted inspectors are idiots. They take a school apart during an inspection, and know all the cover up tricks. You can't hide poor teaching standards and years of uselessness in a few days.

martin84

5,366 posts

22 months

[news] 
Saturday 5th May 2012 quote quote all
turbobloke said:
The idea that the leader of an institution should be present for an inspection is the most compelling reason I can see for having a short period of notice. Surely the inspectors will want to grill the head honcho.
Fair point. You also have to consider theres plenty of schools now which share headteachers with other schools so the head honcho isnt always at the same school or easily accessable. What would be the point in turning up out of nowhere when the head teacher is at the other school?

turbobloke

55,474 posts

129 months

[news] 
Saturday 5th May 2012 quote quote all
Getragdogleg said:
turbobloke said:
This is what the Gove-rnment has said, apparently:

"People fear that no-notice inspection sends a message that we don't trust the profession, that Ofsted has become an arm of the Spanish Inquisition."
There are hundreds of professions that get spot checks with no notice, mine is one of them, so essentially it's ok to hassle us and not trust us but you can't touch schools ?
Agreed. As per my previous post, a reasonable justification is that headteachers may have been booked out of school for some reason and should be able to cancel an engagement with reasonable notice all round in order to be present for an Ofsted visit. Perhaps other forms of inspection in other industries don't revolve around the owner being present on-site, not that this is an absolute defence...and I'm merely suggesting what might be a reasonable justification. Personally I would go with the spot checks as the advantages to parents and pupils outweigh the disadvantages to schools and headteachers. After all the school is there for the pupils not the staff and I believe a significant element of the moral and ethical basis for independent inspections is that they are in effect on behalf of the customers (pupils and parents) not the staff. Close call though and I still return to the notion that a headteacher being present is a good idea, also on behalf of customers.

0a

8,427 posts

63 months

[news] 
Saturday 5th May 2012 quote quote all
It does seem strange that Teachers should yet again be excluded from practices that are normal in many other roles.

Much like the idea of pay differentials. There was a union rep on Any Questions today who said paying teachers different amounts would make running a school impossible. Every workplace I has been in has paid people different amounts according to ability and experience, why not teaching?

The answer to both of the above is that surprise inspections and pay differentials harm poor teachers, who the union insists on protecting at all costs. My sister has taught in two schools now and in both there have been incompeten teachers that are well paid and have been proving a crap education for decades. Without exception they have been very active in the respective union.

Soir

1,882 posts

108 months

[news] 
Saturday 5th May 2012 quote quote all
martin84 said:
Fair point. You also have to consider theres plenty of schools now which share headteachers with other schools so the head honcho isnt always at the same school or easily accessable. What would be the point in turning up out of nowhere when the head teacher is at the other school?
To see what the school is like without head teacher?

So we can't do unannounced inspections in case a teacher is not in...

The sceptic in me thinks new guy comes in and suggests new rules of inspections following common sense..after a while new guy is shown not to rock the boat and cancels his original ideas

Matthen

355 posts

20 months

[news] 
Saturday 5th May 2012 quote quote all
TwigtheWonderkid said:
But Ofsted inspections do root out substandard teachers, sub standard heads and sub standard schools. You seem to think Ofsted inspectors are idiots. They take a school apart during an inspection, and know all the cover up tricks. You can't hide poor teaching standards and years of uselessness in a few days.
No, but you can hide the laziness + uselessness of the weaker teachers, without difficulty. I, as a student, have had teachers whose general lesson plan is "sit on laptop and tell students to read out book, shouting at any student ignorant enough to ask a question." then BAM, OFSTED inspect, the same teacher has a lesson plan, with engaging content, proper structure and question asking was encouraged. OFSTED go, back to business as usual, book work.

Without the warning, he would not have had a lesson plan, nor the printed worksheets, and he would have failed, giving them a clear understanding of his lessons.

martin84

5,366 posts

22 months

[news] 
Saturday 5th May 2012 quote quote all
TwigtheWonderkid said:
But Ofsted inspections do root out substandard teachers, sub standard heads and sub standard schools. You seem to think Ofsted inspectors are idiots. They take a school apart during an inspection, and know all the cover up tricks. You can't hide poor teaching standards and years of uselessness in a few days.
This is what PH's resident band of mouth frothing anti Union right wingers dont seem to grasp. These inspectors are not idiots. Every single year inspections turn up failing schools, bad teachers, poor heads, bad teaching practices etc. They know the school are pre-warned about their visit for goodness sake, they know everybodies going to be on best behaviour with everything spick and span. They dont just turn up, tick a box and go home.

As you say, if a school is a bad school with bad teachers they cannot hide that in three days. Likewise even if a school is perfect it'll most likely seem perfect and the inspectors will dig even further out of a healthy skepticism. Plenty will say their private sector jobs are subject to unannounced inspection, well maybe the level of their private sector work is easier to falsify or cover up in three days than a bad school.

turbobloke

55,474 posts

129 months

[news] 
Saturday 5th May 2012 quote quote all
All of which underlines the dilemma.

Inspect unannounced and see the natives in their natural state. But then also be prepared for the person ultimately responsible for poor performance not being there to face the music and face a personal grilling.

Maybe the resolution of this predicament is to have a minimum 2 day inspection, so the person who has ducked tackling weak performance might be out for day one but will be back in, or can be ordered back in, on day two.

Sure, Ofsted inspectors are only very rarely dummies, and turn up failing schools now...the question is, how many more would they detect? It's not all down to data.

Edited by turbobloke on Saturday 5th May 22:18

Mr Gearchange

3,728 posts

75 months

[news] 
Saturday 5th May 2012 quote quote all
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Matthen said:
The whole inspection system is a joke, surprise investigations are the only way that the substandard teachers will be found, and routed out.
But Ofsted inspections do root out substandard teachers, sub standard heads and sub standard schools. You seem to think Ofsted inspectors are idiots. They take a school apart during an inspection, and know all the cover up tricks. You can't hide poor teaching standards and years of uselessness in a few days.
This. Very much this.
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