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Tyre Smoke
9,207 posts
130 months
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Fittster said: If it's such a cushy number can someone please explain the following. "Four in ten new teachers are driven out of the profession within two years, research suggests. Unruly pupils and red tape were cited as the main reasons for the high turnover. The research also highlighted excessive workloads and lack of family time. The authors of the study called for a campaign to bring disillusioned teachers back into the profession. The study, sponsored by the General Teaching Council and reported in the Times Educational Supplement, found the most common reasons for quitting within two years were 'behaviour of pupils/pupil discipline' and 'family reasons/ commitments'. Both factors were cited by 19 per cent of leavers. Twelve per cent said they could not cope with the workloads. Gospel of TruthCertainly don't get that sort of drop out rate in the private sector. Because in the private sector we have nowhere to go. We either sink or swim, there is nobody to cry to, no weeks and weeks holiday, no weekends off, they have it EASY. For the record, both my parents were teachers. ETA: My dad was so stressed, he had the time and energy to start his own business on the side. Both were excellent teachers and worked damned hard at it.
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Shay HTFC
2,945 posts
58 months
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TeamD said: Hmmm, in the process of writing a letter to my sons schools enquiring as to why he has been banned from taking a kindle to school. Apparently his teacher has made the decision that his choice of reading material is "inappropriate" and as a result has banned the things outright despite the fact that it is his dictionary, thesaurus, foreign language aid etc. Perhaps teachers should stick to teaching and quit trying to "social engineer" kids then they might find that their lot is somewhat less stressful? FFS, we have bleating articles in the press about poor literature skills and here we have a person in a position of trust doing their level best to stop kids reading!!!!!  Don't you think it might be a bit disruptive in class if a few people have kindles and the like and other people just have normal books? Why not just follow the rules and not be one of those annoying know-it-all pushy parents.
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spaximus
1,732 posts
122 months
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There is undoubtedly stress in this as in any job, but the Ofsted guy is correct. I know several teachers and some are good well adjusted happy people, others would be flakes whatever their job choice. My daughter went to a school where the head had been sacked and a new one installed. I asked him what he was doing to raise standards and he said I am sacking wasters and bringing in teachers who want to teach. He did just that and the school gained top marks, he now works for ofsted. There is a problem with some parents attitudes but the biggest problem is weak headmasters letting parents dictate. The example of the lad being told to shut up is a classic case. Had the head just said that the son was unruly and it was correct then perhaps they would have all learnt a lesson but they are scared of upsetting anyone. Tell a kid the aren't as good as another is now deemed wrong but if they aren't told how will they develop.
I hope this guy really gets things moving and that all the kids are allowed to get the education they desrve.
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loafer123
2,699 posts
84 months
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TeamD said: Hmmm, in the process of writing a letter to my sons schools enquiring as to why he has been banned from taking a kindle to school. Apparently his teacher has made the decision that his choice of reading material is "inappropriate" and as a result has banned the things outright despite the fact that it is his dictionary, thesaurus, foreign language aid etc. Perhaps teachers should stick to teaching and quit trying to "social engineer" kids then they might find that their lot is somewhat less stressful? FFS, we have bleating articles in the press about poor literature skills and here we have a person in a position of trust doing their level best to stop kids reading!!!!!  I would think that having to carry the books you refer to as a punishment for reading inappropriate material (What was it? Have you found out?) is perfectly proportionate. Your reaction is, in my view, symptomatic of the problem we are discussing in this thread, so well illustrated by Andymakmak's story.
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Snowboy
3,236 posts
20 months
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Most schools now have policies banning all types of phone, kindle, ipod or other electronic device in the school.
Several reasons – they are disruptive in class, the school gets hassle when they get lost, stolen or broken.
In practice, the schools don’t care if the devices are kept in bags on silent and only used at appropriate times.
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fido
9,389 posts
124 months
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Tyre Smoke said: Because in the private sector we have nowhere to go. We either sink or swim, there is nobody to cry to, no weeks and weeks holiday, no weekends off, they have it EASY. That. Well I did cry a little in my first job. But then i MTFU and just gave as good as i got. So in summary: "Teaching is not stressful" should be "Teaching is stressful. But so are other jobs. And you don't get extra holidays or a Final Salary Pension".
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jesta1865
2,320 posts
78 months
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Tyrewrecker said: WOW, all forums ive seen including this one are a big "defend teachers" brigade. perhaps its because those of us who live and work with teachers see what a daft and banal statement the head of ofsted made. as someone married to a teacher, i see the almost weekly changes ofsted make to their framework for assessing a schools effectiveness. one week a school could get a good, 3 weeks later the framework changes and the same school would have got a failing rating. try having doing your job and being given a new set of targets each month to meet / strive to for your annual report and see if you feel like its a level playing field. also remember that the teachers deal with what comes through the door when it comes to the kids, sometimes they are nice kids but not the sharpest knife in the drawer. you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear, yet many of them try year on year. the people you work with are interviewed for the jobs, you may not get on with all of them, but none of them just walk in off the street and sit at a desk as they live just round the corner.
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andymadmak
6,224 posts
139 months
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Tyrewrecker said: WOW, all forums ive seen including this one are a big "defend teachers" brigade. Why would you be surprised? PH may have an abundance of sharp suited company directors (and the rather more slobbily dressed ones like me  ) but in the main all most of us would want would be for teachers to do a good job, to the best of their ability. That would entail having the support and resources necessary. Without those things the job does indeed become extremely stressful IMHO, especially for those teachers who really are conscientious. Now, as it happens I don't think that resources are a problem per se these days (and that will no doubt put me at odds with some teachers supporters on here) In fact in terms of resources I get very frustrated by teachers who claim it's not possible to teach without having the latest all singing, all dancing computers and class room wizardry. Too many teachers use this as an excuse for failure. If these things really were required then no child in Africa would be learning to read - and lets be honest many African kids leave their basic schools with more reading, writing and basic mathematics skills than too many of our UK educated kids! As a one time chair of a PTA for several years I used to marvel at the spectacular lack of common sense often exhibited by teachers and their propensity to gripe at things that, frankly, most people in industry would not think twice about. However, that's not what this is about. In my view the root causes of stress levels amongst good teachers (note the distinction) is the lack of discipline and available sanction in schools, coupled with a modern day school culture that too often does not encourage achievement amongst children, but is rather too quick to find and make excuses for failure.
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Twincam16
27,230 posts
127 months
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TheDiplomat said: I think one of the major issues, as said, is the poor quality of teachers. I genuinely believe that the following measures would significantly increase standards in the classroom;
- All school expenditure and teacher appointments to be decided by board of Governors. Scrap all LEAs. - Raise the basic teacher's wage to £32,000 - Head of department to £50,000 - Head Master to £90,000
Re-aligning the pay of teachers with the other "great professions" of law and medicine would rapidly drive up teaching quality. Teaching pay has been neglected for far too long.
The pay increase would be done on one requirement: every teacher would have to re-apply for their job against any outsiders who also wanted to apply. The increase in teachers from the military, business, law, higher education and so on would probably be life changing to vast numbers of pupils. Outsiders would take a TeachFirst style, intensive preparatory course over the summer, before they started teaching.
It is indeed the case that a very sizeable number of all university graduates (but not all) who teach decide to do so because they feel it is an easy way out - they can't do anything else. I think it is awful that (like our politicians du jour) we have vast numbers of career teachers (and career politicians) who have no real world experience. They are also often too politicised and unionised.
The real damage of poor teaching is done to the kids they teach.
I would also want to introduce a tripartite schooling system, which divides off at age 14 (when most kids realise their potential) in to grammar schools, engineering/science/technical colleges and music/theatre/sporting colleges.
You will have a society with strong academics, vast numbers of well trained technicians/IT support staff/engineers/mechanics and performing artists.
Of course the Grauniad ooman rights brigade would disagree with me. I'm so sure it would work though. Thoughts? As someone who trained as a teacher but didn't finish the course at least in part due to stress, I agree with every word of that. However, one of the biggest problems we have in schools is with discipline. We've managed to put kids on an absurdly lofty pedestal, where they can claim their 'human rights' in classrooms over any behaviour, and no disciplinary procedure really works until it's too late. Think back to your school days and the punishments metered out: -Being sent out of the class - you can't do this any more as the teacher has a responsibility to keep them in the room. -Being taken outside by a teacher and shouted at - you can't be left alone with a child, and shouting is heavily discouraged. -Detention - nowadays has to be approved of in advance by parents. Usually the parents don't, so the kids don't turn up. -Being sent to do your work in an extraction room - they also have to be booked in advance - see how many kids turn up. -Lines - deemed 'demoralising' nowadays. -Confiscating offending property - the kids know you can't lay a finger on them, so they clutch onto it with all their might. If you prise it out of their fingers, it's 'assault' and you'll be in trouble. You know what? You can't even use sarcasm any more. The only 'punishment' you can meter out is to move a kid to another location within the classroom, which makes the square-root of bugger-all difference. So, what happens instead is that the teacher stands powerless at the front of the classroom, being taken to the cleaners by the kids in the lower tiers. If you're not academically strong, you'll be in classes like this and you won't be going anywhere. The only real punishment a school has is exclusion, which has to be agreed with the local authority. These have increased, largely because there are no other effective punishments that can be metered out along the way. And then there are the lessons. Ludicrously prescriptive due to 'child-centred learning', which deliberately avoids challenging the kids with new and different things. Also, rather than helping kids develop long attention spans, it caters for shorter ones, so no activity within a lesson can realistically last longer than 10 minutes. You have to include a 'starter' and a 'plenary' to make sure the kids know what they're going to learn, then what they have learnt, in every lesson. As a result, no matter how enthusiastic and passionate a teacher is about their subject these days, their lesson is prescribed from the top down for every waking minute. My best teachers were the ones who could effectively deliver a 45-minute lecture, and you'd have such rapt attention you'd never feel the need for other distractions. They would also 'rip up the rule book' and let the lesson flow. Tellingly, when I went back to my old school, all those teachers had retired early. You can't teach the way they did any more, which means that if I was a kid in school today, I wouldn't learn as much. Then you're expected to deal with all the kids' problems. Cost-slashing under the Mandelson-PR'd banner of 'inclusion', Labour closed several special schools and PRUs, meaning that mainsteam education is expected to accommodate children with severe behavioural difficulties and learning disabilities alongside all the other kids, which slows lessons right down trying to cater for them. Teachers just can't get on and 'teach', and the blame falls with four things: -A dearth of responsibility within society in general, where discipline and respect aren't enforced at home and teachers are effectively expected to bring up the kids because the real parents can't be bothered. -A constant churn of government 'initiatives', constantly changing and meddling with what kids and teachers are meant to be doing. Problem is, an education reform's effect won't truly be seen until the kids involve leave school, but governments always looking for re-election want to point to results NOW. As a result, education reforms overlap and have very little measurable effect. Also, in order to massage pass rates, kids aren't expected to do anything particularly challenging. The 'EBacc', which was proposed and written off as 'elitist', would have merely been a return to the curriculum everyone had to follow when I was at school back in the '90s. -Teaching unions, who rarely have their own members interests at heart, and are more like far-Left pressure groups. The reason why there were so many strikes over the Tories education reforms recently were absolutely nothing to do with whether or not the reforms were a good thing, and everything to do with the fact they were introduced by the Tories. Labour repeatedly swung wrecking balls into the education system when they were in power, and the unions didn't respond at all, because it was Labour, and everything they do is OK. Also, the average teacher knows very little about politics, so the unions seek to indoctrinate them right from their recruitment. I remember whole seminars where we were told to unquestionably vote Labour as they would 'protect us', and the stifling political correctness that leaches through schools making white working-class boys feel worthless is all union-driven. -OfStEd, whose criteria for judging the effectiveness of schools is laughable, and whose inspectors rarely if ever have any experience of education at all. But above all, we really do need to reconfigure our school system around the German tripartite system (something we were originally going to do until the public schools kicked up a fuss on the planning committee as they saw them as a threat to their 'superiority'). At the moment you can only 'succeed' in a British school if you're academically or scientifically minded. Not everyone is, nor does the country need everyone to be, and to force everyone through this particular chip-cutter is farcical. We need scientific/technical and arts/humanities divisions at the very least. That way, the 11-plus (which I'd move up to 13, keeping the kids in more topic-based learning within Middle-schools catering for ages 9-13) wouldn't be seen as condemning half the kids to a life of underachievement, but rather helping them to focus their skills. At the moment, though, we're on the edge of some serious difficulties. The lack of employment opportunities, the non-degrees, the overprovision of universities, the lack of discipline stretching into adulthood - they're coming back to bite us. I don't think we've seen the worst of the societal ravages that are a knock-on effect of Labour's education 'reforms'.
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Snowboy
3,236 posts
20 months
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In a nutshell.
The only way to fix schools is to go back to treating the pupils like children and the teachers like adults.
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munky
5,257 posts
117 months
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Blimey. You'd think a teacher would know the difference between "metered" and "meted"
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honest_delboy
654 posts
69 months
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I'm voting Twincam16 at the next election
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Marf
22,907 posts
110 months
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munky said: Blimey. You'd think a teacher would know the difference between "metered" and "meted" Good thing he's not a teacher. I guess your teachers must have been pretty crap given the reading skills you've displayed 
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smartypants
17,416 posts
38 months
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Kids have all the power in schools now, and they know it - even from an early age. That's going to take some while to claw back. Corporal punishment would be a quick way, but that's impossible to do now.
Parents are fecking useless also.
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DonkeyApple
12,025 posts
38 months
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I wonder how stressful it would be if the children all sat facing the front and shut the f  k up. Teachers have brought this all on themselves and us with decades of wishy washy, namby pamby, do gooding b  ks. Excessive red tape doesn't help but once they lost control of the pupils they were finished. Remove all rights from children. Punish parents. Discipline children. Show the little f  kers who the boss is and stop trying to be their friend. I know quite a few teachers and funnily enough the ones who don't find it stressful weirdly happen to be the ones who control their classes and command respect.
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Twincam16
27,230 posts
127 months
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smartypants said: Kids have all the power in schools now, and they know it - even from an early age. That's going to take some while to claw back. Corporal punishment would be a quick way, but that's impossible to do now.
Parents are fecking useless also. If schools are preparatory microcosms of society to prepare kids for their future, then IMO what schools need are a uniform enforcement procedure. Whatever school you go to, whatever your background, there would be no escape or exemption from it. So, no electronic devices. They disrupt lessons badly and aren't conducive to concentration spans. If you're caught with one, it gets confiscated and you can collect it at the end of the day. No complaining. If you play up, you get sent to detention that afternoon. No ifs, no buts, straight there. Form tutor is notified electronically so they know that after afternoon registration, the kid is detained. Simple as that. If the kid is seriously disruptive, they get sent immediately to extraction where they'll spend the rest of the day. If they protest physically, then a specially-trained member of staff will be called upon to take them there. There are techniques taught to teachers in self-defence now (yes, in some skills it's got that bad) that don't actually harm the kids, but do immobilise them. And at every step of the way, it is explained in detail as to WHY their behaviour is being punished. THIS is the problem with a lot of the lack of discipline problems we face - these kids aren't just badly behaved, they don't know that their behaviour is bad.
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smartypants
17,416 posts
38 months
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I would vote for you  A lot of teachers I know agree with you, but they are powerless to do anything.
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qube_TA
6,618 posts
114 months
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A mate of mine who I used to work with left to start a new career as a secondary-school teacher. It was an ambition of his, he teaches Business & IT.
He loves it, says that all the stress he had in the real world has gone. Loves the holidays as he can spend more time with his kids and isn't away from home at all. Says "I can do an hours overtime, be an absolute hero at work, and still be home for half-four!" The results he gets from the children he teaches is very good, is is earning about £40K less than he was before which is in his view the only struggle.
I have an aunt and uncle who were also teachers, they complained all the time about how hard it was, however they'd never done anything other than teach so didn't have the frame of reference.
Would be interested to see how many 'stressed' teachers have had non-teaching professional jobs prior.
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Twincam16
27,230 posts
127 months
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DonkeyApple said: I know quite a few teachers and funnily enough the ones who don't find it stressful weirdly happen to be the ones who control their classes and command respect. Public or private sector?
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robsa
903 posts
53 months
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I think it's all been said really, but as I am currently coming to the end of my teacher training, I thought I would say how it has been for me.
Quick background: 6 years as a computer programmer, 8 years in surveying before re-training as an ICT teacher. (I'm 40 with a BSc)
It is VERY stressful. I have had very stressful jobs before, both from very long hours, high risk, physically exhausting, long hours driving, etc. I thought teaching would be a doddle. I had a very big shock; what was I thinking?! I laugh now at how I thought it would be.
Dealing with one teenager can be a handful - try 30 of them, rotated hourly! You spend hours preparing a lesson for them, and they don't listen - they sit there chatting. Now, I am sure some will say 'that's your fault, you're the teacher, you should make them listen' and that may be partly correct. Good teachers can get most of a class to listen; but it takes many YEARS of classroom experience to do - I know this as I have observed it over and over again. Kids have all the tricks to get out of doing anything and they use them, I promise you. They smell a fresh teacher coming and will tear you to pieces - I am not kidding! And it's somehting you can't trian for or practise really anywhere other than in the classroom. They have a wickedly developed sense of 'teenage justice' and will rapidly gang up and argue the toss.
Kids don't listen, won't read (kids don't read books any more, and switch off if they see more than half a side of writing) and don't care to the point of throwing away a year of their work just to be balshy. They are just kids, yes, and the same as they ever were, also yes. But, the difference is, when I went to Secondary (1980-1985) we showed respect to teachers and frankly would not dare argue with them for fear of a clout or the cane. We had high achievement, top sports teams but were also very happy. I was frankly a nightmare pupil but still wouldn't dream of arguing with a teacher.
I think one thing that I have considered is that people in England seem to have become obsessed about their kids; we almost have a 'Cult of the Kid' here. They deserve the best in everything, they should have it now, nothing is too good and we should never, ever criticise them for any reason. We are also quick to blame any perceived shortfall in talent as 'not their fault'. When I was at school we had maybe 5 or 6 SEN pupils - you could generally spot them because they used crutches, were in wheelchairs etc. Now, my classes have maybe 40% on the SEN register! Are they SEN? I would say not, as I cannot tell without checking the SEN register. It is interesting that my friends who do not treat their kids in this way are the ones with well mannered, polite, hard working children who are doing well in lesson.
We are told not to mark in red because it's 'too negative', you cannot criticise pupils work(and much of it is awful), you can only tell them how to 'make it even better'. If parents treated their kids a little less like Demi-Gods and a little more like the children that they are (e.g. didn't pander to them, enforced discipline, taught them respect, patience and that happiness does not come from material things) I think that would be a good start. I see year 7 kids (11 year olds) with iPhone 4S phones all the time! (and Jack Wills gilet's too...)
So, I can assure all of you teaching is very stressful, it is really, really hard and there is a lot wrong with it as far as I can see (obsession with getting grades which seem, frankly, to be meaningless) but teachers are a good bunch on the whole who really care, work really hard and are up against it most of the time.
It takes a really long time to be a good teacher - which is how it should be. If you could become a top teacher in 6 months, more people would do it.
-R
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