Santander - Next bank in line for mass withdrawals of savings?

[DonkeyApple]

hornet said:

I believe Santander UK is a distinct entity and so in theory shouldn't have exposure should the parent run into local (i.e. Spanish) difficulty. Plus there's the £85k FSCS cover. That said, I have the bulk of my savings with them and having been through the implosion of Kaupthing, have decided to move a chunk elsewhere (to a UK mutual), just to be on the safe side. Eggs, baskets and all that.

The issue with Santander is that it holds an enormous level of UK personal cash.

Now, it has a separate banking license and balance sheet here in the UK and we have laws to stop a parent bank transferring assets illegally.

However, let's face two very clear realities. If Spain and its banks default there are no laws on this planet that will stop them from asset stripping all UK accounts to use this money to offset their domestic losses. An action that would also be fully supported and defended by their govt as each GBP extracted from the UK is less money they will need to find.

The second reality is that they own such a huge % of UK client funds the FCS would not be able to cover a fraction of its liability. And not could the rest of the UK banking industry which is the next line of draw to fill this fund.

If Spain or Santander looks like it is about to go pop then the only hope is that the British Govt forcibly enters the UK arm and seizes all assets to stave off the inevitable emptying of accounts.

[hornet]

whoami said:

Agreed.

Can we start soon then?

• Santander as an organisation have large exposure to Spanish property
• Property with loans presumably in euros
• Spanish property market is screwed
• Euro looking increasingly screwed (by autumn etc)
• Santander UK in theory ring-fenced, but still part of parent group.
• Nice man on telly says they're safe (a la Icesave, Kaupthing etc)
• UK savings covered by £85k FSCS guarantee
• Other UK banks/mutuals exist that aren't massively exposed to Spanish mortgages and/or euro
• Some people are happy with FSCS guarantee and trust nice man on the telly
• Others would rather not wait to find out and are exercising their right to switch accounts
• Possibly over-reaction, but they are free to choose

[DJC]

I pulled some money from Santander.

It wasn't due to worry about their stability mind, just because they are st.

[DonkeyApple]

dandarez said:

As someone who reads the Mail ...don't laugh

...their financial guy Tony Hetherington is really good, and has been warning about Santander for years!

it started with this...

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/experts/article...

here is more recent stuff

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/saving/article-...

Bank with Santander, only if you're a mug. Problem is most didn't get a choice. They (Santander) even got in with the store cards, for example, like the Debenhams store card - my wife had one, then it quietly was taken by Santander... when I read the small print it was dumped ...immediately!
I'd be pulling my cash out now, but I (luckily) don't have any with them.

I've been warning of Santander for longer.

Any bank which has a foreign owner and goes on a huge spree to gain market share in the UK and get as much client cash on deposit as possible is telling us one clear thing: they are using UK client money to rebuild a deeply holed balance sheet.

By all accounts the signs have been there since 07 and I wouldn't touch them with a barge pole like I didn't touch the Icelandic operators.

[Enricogto]

davepoth said:

Digger said:

Or am i being over-reactive?

HSBC are probably the solidest of the high street banks due to the diversity of their markets.

and

whoami said:

Mermaid said:

whoami said:

Much muppetry being spouted on this thread.

We are in uncertain times....it is good to get the facts.

Agreed.

Can we start soon then?

Come on guys, it's this sort of bs and knee jerking that causes the worst damage!
Are you so sure that in case Santander goes belly up all others EU bank don't take the hit? Who do you think is the non collateralized counterparty of all EU banks? Bingo, mainly UK banks! Aside from the fact that Santander is one of the best banks in the EU in terms of Tier1 capital, but in all seriousness a meltdown of one of the national banking systems (whichever you want) could lead to an armageddon in all other systems.
Trust in the national guarantee scheme (AFAIK UK, France, Germany, Italy and Spain atleast have one) or just stick them in the matrass, but don't smoke when in bed!

Disclaimer: I don NOT work at Santander!

Enrico

[Ribol]

Enricogto said:

Disclaimer: I don NOT work at Santander!

Just as well, imagine losing your savings and your job

[davepoth]

Enricogto said:

Come on guys, it's this sort of bs and knee jerking that causes the worst damage!
Are you so sure that in case Santander goes belly up all others EU bank don't take the hit? Who do you think is the non collateralized counterparty of all EU banks? Bingo, mainly UK banks! Aside from the fact that Santander is one of the best banks in the EU in terms of Tier1 capital, but in all seriousness a meltdown of one of the national banking systems (whichever you want) could lead to an armageddon in all other systems.
Trust in the national guarantee scheme (AFAIK UK, France, Germany, Italy and Spain atleast have one) or just stick them in the matrass, but don't smoke when in bed!

Disclaimer: I don NOT work at Santander!

Enrico

Of course not. Nobody can really be sure which banks will go down in the chain reaction, but it is surely better to be in one that is going to be indirectly rather then directly affected.

The EU's financial stress testing is an utter joke though, and can't be relied upon; and if Santander in Spain falls over there will be queues at the branches in the UK regardless of how ring-fenced it is.

And for the guy above who was wondering about mortgages - don't worry, someone will buy that since your debt to them is an asset.

[Enricogto]

Ribol said:

Enricogto said:

Disclaimer: I don NOT work at Santander!

Just as well, imagine losing your savings and your job

Unfortunately I work in another bank (not spanish nor in Spain) where I have my savings......

[Enricogto]

davepoth said:

Enricogto said:

Come on guys, it's this sort of bs and knee jerking that causes the worst damage!
Are you so sure that in case Santander goes belly up all others EU bank don't take the hit? Who do you think is the non collateralized counterparty of all EU banks? Bingo, mainly UK banks! Aside from the fact that Santander is one of the best banks in the EU in terms of Tier1 capital, but in all seriousness a meltdown of one of the national banking systems (whichever you want) could lead to an armageddon in all other systems.
Trust in the national guarantee scheme (AFAIK UK, France, Germany, Italy and Spain atleast have one) or just stick them in the matrass, but don't smoke when in bed!

Disclaimer: I don NOT work at Santander!

Enrico

Of course not. Nobody can really be sure which banks will go down in the chain reaction, but it is surely better to be in one that is going to be indirectly rather then directly affected.

The EU's financial stress testing is an utter joke though, and can't be relied upon; and if Santander in Spain falls over there will be queues at the branches in the UK regardless of how ring-fenced it is.

And for the guy above who was wondering about mortgages - don't worry, someone will buy that since your debt to them is an asset.

Ok can understand the logic behind the idea of being indirectly involved, even if it's only a matter of how much s**t hits the fan to find stains on your cloths.

I agree also on the comment re the madness of stress tests, but as long as they are the metric under which the EU values the solidity of banks (not so important) but also a data markets are sensible at (more important), I'd bet if someone has to fall they're not the first to go. Since my job is exactly referred to this, I can grant you that no matter how you stress test, amass capital and try to foresee any possible scenario, the one that actually realize is the one you forgot to test/deemed unlikely to happen.

Enrico

[McClure]

DJC said:

I pulled some money from Santander.

It wasn't due to worry about their stability mind, just because they are st.

[anonymous-user]

DonkeyApple said:

dandarez said:

As someone who reads the Mail ...don't laugh

...their financial guy Tony Hetherington is really good, and has been warning about Santander for years!

it started with this...

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/experts/article...

here is more recent stuff

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/saving/article-...

Bank with Santander, only if you're a mug. Problem is most didn't get a choice. They (Santander) even got in with the store cards, for example, like the Debenhams store card - my wife had one, then it quietly was taken by Santander... when I read the small print it was dumped ...immediately!
I'd be pulling my cash out now, but I (luckily) don't have any with them.

I've been warning of Santander for longer.

Any bank which has a foreign owner and goes on a huge spree to gain market share in the UK and get as much client cash on deposit as possible is telling us one clear thing: they are using UK client money to rebuild a deeply holed balance sheet.

By all accounts the signs have been there since 07 and I wouldn't touch them with a barge pole like I didn't touch the Icelandic operators.

Where's my tin foil hat?

[traxx]

hornet said:

• Santander as an organisation have large exposure to Spanish property
• Property with loans presumably in euros
• Spanish property market is screwed
• Euro looking increasingly screwed (by autumn etc)
• Santander UK in theory ring-fenced, but still part of parent group.
• Nice man on telly says they're safe (a la Icesave, Kaupthing etc)
• UK savings covered by £85k FSCS guarantee
• Other UK banks/mutuals exist that aren't massively exposed to Spanish mortgages and/or euro
• Some people are happy with FSCS guarantee and trust nice man on the telly
• Others would rather not wait to find out and are exercising their right to switch accounts
• Possibly over-reaction, but they are free to choose

I think its worth adding that there is a very good chance that the parent company in Spain could also face a run on its money.

After all if you were a Spanish saver faced with the choice of leaving your money in a potentially troubled Spanish bank and also facing the potential risk of devaluation linked to an overnight Euro exit wouldn't you think the sensible thing to do would be to move your saving to a German/Dutch etc Northern European Bank.

IMO In this situation even if savers in the UK leave their money in the bank the money will be moved back to Spain no matter what story they may tell you about the UK operation being separate.

[DonkeyApple]

St John Smythe said:

Where's my tin foil hat?

Hopefully not in a deposit box at Santander.

[Ribol]

traxx said:

IMO In this situation even if savers in the UK leave their money in the bank the money will be moved back to Spain no matter what story they may tell you about the UK operation being separate.

It doesn't matter where the money "is", accounts are either covered by the FSCS or not, you cannot have it bother ways ..................... and they are.

[turbobloke]

Ribol said:

I can remember when there were just as many experts on here telling us all that Icesave couldn't go bang as there were telling us it could.

When it did go bang everyone then said they knew it would, so much for PH banking experts

My recollection of Icelandic banks on PH involves tonker giving everybody lots of advance notice of a forthcoming fkup. Can't recall any determined efforts to say those banks were hewn from granite.

[VinceFox]

dont talk to me about santander.

tried to consolidate two isas with them on 10th april. one from halifax for ten grand, one from barclays. i've since heard from halifax that it's been transferred out.

and what have i heard from santander? regarding the halifax transfer, absolutely fk ALL. regarding the barclays one, i made an error on my address which although i passed all phone security they have told me two different things over the phone, one that it was amended and the second time that it couldn't be and despite passing all security and giving them the correct full address, that i'd need to go in in person to clear it up.

i'm a gnats cock off closing the fking lot and stuffing it all under my fking matress. it'd be safer and i wouldnt have to keep phoning up what appears to be a company manned entirely by unreliable children whose default reaction to any question is to make some st up and hope i go away. worst service of anywhere financial that i've ever dealt with. i've been with them a month.

[NorthernBoy]

DJC said:

I pulled some money from Santander.

It wasn't due to worry about their stability mind, just because they are st.

Made in jest, but is actually a pretty sensible point.

If you've had money in Santander so far, you were putting p with an expected headache because of their customer service, for some reason. likely it was the slightly higher rates of interest, or just inertia from ending up with them by accident.

The "cost" of dealing with them normally is surely orders of magnitude greater than the expected cost of having to file a claim with the government in case of a bankruptcy.

Taking money out now seems strange.

[0000]

VinceFox said:

stuff about ISAs and Santander

I'd get on top of it very quickly if I were you - I tried opening an ISA with money from a current account. The money left the current account and didn't make it into the ISA. It took a year and an FSA complaint for them to get me the money back, along the way accusing me of taking it out in cash!

[VinceFox]

0000 said:

VinceFox said:

stuff about ISAs and Santander

I'd get on top of it very quickly if I were you - I tried opening an ISA with money from a current account. The money left the current account and didn't make it into the ISA. It took a year and an FSA complaint for them to get me the money back, along the way accusing me of taking it out in cash!

worrying stuff. my only reassurance there (such that it is) is that mine was an isa to isa transfer, not a current account. have to admit though, the more i deal with santander, the more i want to close the account just based on their service alone.

[audidoody]

I pulled all my savings out of Santander two weeks ago. I found I was earning 0.01 per cent on an e-saver account that was paying 3.00 per cent a year ago. I didn't realise the higher rate was a 'bonus' that expired after 12 months. More fool me for not checking the small print. But why should I have to? Anyway, all my dosh is in a Post Office instant access account paying proper interest