Discussion
hairykrishna said:
'Where's the line' is the critical question. I suggest it's ok at the moment as most stuff is available with the appropriate licence and I can see sensible reasons for most of the outlawed stuff. How far do you propose the relaxation goes? Are we allowed machine guns? RPG's? Plutonium-239? (I'm actually not sure of the current legality of that last one!)
For me handguns are on the wrong side of that line.Halb said:
hairykrishna said:
'Where's the line' is the critical question. I suggest it's ok at the moment as most stuff is available with the appropriate licence and I can see sensible reasons for most of the outlawed stuff. How far do you propose the relaxation goes? Are we allowed machine guns? RPG's? Plutonium-239? (I'm actually not sure of the current legality of that last one!)
For me handguns are on the wrong side of that line.Liokault said:
When it makes my violent death more statistically likely
Well if you try and break into my house then that's a risk you should be willing to take.Cars are statistically more likely to kill you than guns IIRC. We best ban them first, can't be too careful.
ETA - and doctors/hospitals are more likely to kill you than cars. We best ban them too.
I'm a fully grown adult male. I have done some military service. I have fired several guns with live rounds. I am a reasonable shot.
However, I dread the time I ever feel I might be safer with a gun under my pillow, for these reasons:
1. Criminals will be less nervous about firing their gun at me as I would be at them.
2. My own gun could be taken and used against me or my family.
3. If they know I can legally hold a gun in my house then any burglar is much more likely to come with one too.
However, I dread the time I ever feel I might be safer with a gun under my pillow, for these reasons:
1. Criminals will be less nervous about firing their gun at me as I would be at them.
2. My own gun could be taken and used against me or my family.
3. If they know I can legally hold a gun in my house then any burglar is much more likely to come with one too.
oyster said:
I'm a fully grown adult male. I have done some military service. I have fired several guns with live rounds. I am a reasonable shot.
However, I dread the time I ever feel I might be safer with a gun under my pillow, for these reasons:
1. Criminals will be less nervous about firing their gun at me as I would be at them.
2. My own gun could be taken and used against me or my family.
3. If they know I can legally hold a gun in my house then any burglar is much more likely to come with one too.
1. They already less nervous.However, I dread the time I ever feel I might be safer with a gun under my pillow, for these reasons:
1. Criminals will be less nervous about firing their gun at me as I would be at them.
2. My own gun could be taken and used against me or my family.
3. If they know I can legally hold a gun in my house then any burglar is much more likely to come with one too.
2. At least you will have had one, like they will.
3. No, he is more likely to choose another house.
oyster said:
I'm a fully grown adult male. I have done some military service. I have fired several guns with live rounds. I am a reasonable shot.
However, I dread the time I ever feel I might be safer with a gun under my pillow, for these reasons:
1. Criminals will be less nervous about firing their gun at me as I would be at them.
2. My own gun could be taken and used against me or my family.
3. If they know I can legally hold a gun in my house then any burglar is much more likely to come with one too.
Then feel free not to have one, or to licence it if you do. However, I dread the time I ever feel I might be safer with a gun under my pillow, for these reasons:
1. Criminals will be less nervous about firing their gun at me as I would be at them.
2. My own gun could be taken and used against me or my family.
3. If they know I can legally hold a gun in my house then any burglar is much more likely to come with one too.
I have no wish to shoot anyone, I have doubts that I would ever would do, and am unsure how I would feel about it afterwards if I did. However when I read a story like the one that I linked in the OP, and think how utterly impotent and useless the father must feel, and how much rather I would read about a promising footballer getting his comeuppance, then I think it's the lesser of two evils.
We don't need to relax gun ownership in the UK, if you want a gun, can show a reasonable use for it and have a appropriate background you can have a rifle or shotgun (probably other types too) of course handguns are banned quite rightly as they are largely designed, built and sold for the business of killing other humans, it's a shame that the people who used to enjoy competition pistol shooting ether can't or have to train abroad, but like lots of things the few ruined it for the most.
I'll be frank, in my opinion there are two types of people who'd like a handgun for 'home defence'.
The scared Daily Mail reader who's convinced the world is full of nasty people who'll cut their head off to steal their Diana memorial plate, who if ever pulled a gun on a hardened criminal would have it taken from them and stuck up their arse.
And in the insecure, penis worrier who think his "tool" will earn his "respect" and end up shooting someone in the pub because he "looked at him funny".
Of course gun crime in the UK makes the headlines, because it's so rare, in the US (America being mentioned a lot on this topic as an example) you pretty much need to cause a massacre to even feature at the end of the news.
I'll be frank, in my opinion there are two types of people who'd like a handgun for 'home defence'.
The scared Daily Mail reader who's convinced the world is full of nasty people who'll cut their head off to steal their Diana memorial plate, who if ever pulled a gun on a hardened criminal would have it taken from them and stuck up their arse.
And in the insecure, penis worrier who think his "tool" will earn his "respect" and end up shooting someone in the pub because he "looked at him funny".
Of course gun crime in the UK makes the headlines, because it's so rare, in the US (America being mentioned a lot on this topic as an example) you pretty much need to cause a massacre to even feature at the end of the news.
P-Jay said:
I'll be frank, in my opinion there are two types of people who'd like a handgun for 'home defence'.
The scared Daily Mail reader who's convinced the world is full of nasty people who'll cut their head off to steal their Diana memorial plate, who if ever pulled a gun on a hardened criminal would have it taken from them and stuck up their arse.
And in the insecure, penis worrier who think his "tool" will earn his "respect" and end up shooting someone in the pub because he "looked at him funny".
That's that covered then.The scared Daily Mail reader who's convinced the world is full of nasty people who'll cut their head off to steal their Diana memorial plate, who if ever pulled a gun on a hardened criminal would have it taken from them and stuck up their arse.
And in the insecure, penis worrier who think his "tool" will earn his "respect" and end up shooting someone in the pub because he "looked at him funny".
What about the guy in the linked article who was subject to a campaign of harassment that the police were entirely unable to stop?
Would he have been wrong to defend his family and property with deadly force? Would he have been a Mail reader or a penis worrier if he had gone out and bought an effective means to defend himself?
Or is it perfectly fine with you that a family were hounded out of their home by a bunch of thugs who were not "hardened criminals" but neighbourhood yobs who knew full well he was powerless to act? Fine so long as little Jethro only dies of stab wounds from a rival drug dealer, rather then getting shot?
AJS- said:
That's that covered then.
What about the guy in the linked article who was subject to a campaign of harassment that the police were entirely unable to stop?
Would he have been wrong to defend his family and property with deadly force?
The law is already quite clear on this matter.What about the guy in the linked article who was subject to a campaign of harassment that the police were entirely unable to stop?
Would he have been wrong to defend his family and property with deadly force?
AJS- said:
P-Jay said:
I'll be frank, in my opinion there are two types of people who'd like a handgun for 'home defence'.
The scared Daily Mail reader who's convinced the world is full of nasty people who'll cut their head off to steal their Diana memorial plate, who if ever pulled a gun on a hardened criminal would have it taken from them and stuck up their arse.
And in the insecure, penis worrier who think his "tool" will earn his "respect" and end up shooting someone in the pub because he "looked at him funny".
That's that covered then.The scared Daily Mail reader who's convinced the world is full of nasty people who'll cut their head off to steal their Diana memorial plate, who if ever pulled a gun on a hardened criminal would have it taken from them and stuck up their arse.
And in the insecure, penis worrier who think his "tool" will earn his "respect" and end up shooting someone in the pub because he "looked at him funny".
What about the guy in the linked article who was subject to a campaign of harassment that the police were entirely unable to stop?
Would he have been wrong to defend his family and property with deadly force? Would he have been a Mail reader or a penis worrier if he had gone out and bought an effective means to defend himself?
Or is it perfectly fine with you that a family were hounded out of their home by a bunch of thugs who were not "hardened criminals" but neighbourhood yobs who knew full well he was powerless to act? Fine so long as little Jethro only dies of stab wounds from a rival drug dealer, rather then getting shot?
They've suffered from vandalism, someone sprayed on a fence, burglary and a kid's been given two black eyes. Yes the Police should be all over it, vandalism, burglary and assault being sort of 'their job' and they do it far better than certain corners of the press would like you to think, certainly better than going postal Death Wish style.
What is statistically more likely to happen if Dad did buy a gun is, someone would break into his house at night and steal it, perhaps killing him in the process, and then it would just be another illegal gun in UK.
P-Jay said:
The Dad hasn't actually mentioned he'd like to tool up, but if he did I'd be leaning towards Wail reader.
They've suffered from vandalism, someone sprayed on a fence, burglary and a kid's been given two black eyes. Yes the Police should be all over it, vandalism, burglary and assault being sort of 'their job' and they do it far better than certain corners of the press would like you to think, certainly better than going postal Death Wish style.
What is statistically more likely to happen if Dad did buy a gun is, someone would break into his house at night and steal it, perhaps killing him in the process, and then it would just be another illegal gun in UK.
By which statistics?They've suffered from vandalism, someone sprayed on a fence, burglary and a kid's been given two black eyes. Yes the Police should be all over it, vandalism, burglary and assault being sort of 'their job' and they do it far better than certain corners of the press would like you to think, certainly better than going postal Death Wish style.
What is statistically more likely to happen if Dad did buy a gun is, someone would break into his house at night and steal it, perhaps killing him in the process, and then it would just be another illegal gun in UK.
Martin
I didn't ask what the law says though, I asked it he would have been wrong to do so.
AJS- said:
Martin
I didn't ask what the law says though, I asked it he would have been wrong to do so.
If the scumbag broke into his home and was armed in some way then yes the homeowner should be able to use force. However under current UK law even if guns were allowed you'd only get away with shooting the burglar if he also had a gun. Gun vs baseball bat is not 'reasonable force' is it?I didn't ask what the law says though, I asked it he would have been wrong to do so.
martin84 said:
Gun vs baseball bat is not 'reasonable force' is it?
Why not?Do I have to wait and find out if he has a gun? Ask him nicely?
Do I have to take my chances that a lucky swipe with a baseball bat won't leave me dead? Or put my gun back in it's cabinet and find a baseball bat? What is the right thing to do if a burglar or other violent thug is threatening me with a baseball bat in my home?
And not "what the law says" - the law is entirely irrelevant here since it failed so completely to protect this family that they were forced to move house.
Edited by AJS- on Monday 28th May 17:11
martin84 said:
If the scumbag broke into his home and was armed in some way then yes the homeowner should be able to use force. However under current UK law even if guns were allowed you'd only get away with shooting the burglar if he also had a gun. Gun vs baseball bat is not 'reasonable force' is it?
Although the bat is far more dangerous in reality. You're not going to miss, run out of amo, take your foot off or not be able to get in close. 
AJS- said:
Why not?
Do I have to wait and find out if he has a gun? Ask him nicely?
Do I have to take my chances that a lucky swipe with a baseball bat won't leave me dead? Or put my gun back in it's cabinet and find a baseball bat? What is the right thing to do if a burglar or other violent thug is threatening me with a baseball bat in my home?
And not "what the law says" - the law is entirely irrelevant here since it failed so completely to protect this family that they were forced to move house.
If everybody had guns his next address could've been in the ground. The law is perfectly sound, I do think there should be better enforcement and Police should have the power to take firmer action much sooner with stuff like this. We put people in prison for not paying council tax in this country but vandalism and violence gets let off. Thats the problem, not gun laws.Do I have to wait and find out if he has a gun? Ask him nicely?
Do I have to take my chances that a lucky swipe with a baseball bat won't leave me dead? Or put my gun back in it's cabinet and find a baseball bat? What is the right thing to do if a burglar or other violent thug is threatening me with a baseball bat in my home?
And not "what the law says" - the law is entirely irrelevant here since it failed so completely to protect this family that they were forced to move house.
Edited by AJS- on Monday 28th May 17:11
martin84 said:
If everybody had guns his next address could've been in the ground. The law is perfectly sound, I do think there should be better enforcement and Police should have the power to take firmer action much sooner with stuff like this. We put people in prison for not paying council tax in this country but vandalism and violence gets let off. Thats the problem, not gun laws.
I'm not talking about everyone having guns though. I'm talking about it being legal to have a gun in the house and use it to defend your home and family. The police can't be everywhere at all times, and it's rightly quite difficult to prosecute people because they must be proven guilty "beyond reasonable doubt." If you shift the balance of proof though, to say that it must be proved beyond reasonable doubt that the home owner was not protecting himself by firing, then it would be a big step forward.
As for this talk of everyone going around with guns 'like they do in America' (which they don't), since handguns are already pretty much illegal here, then why not just apply the law to full length shotguns? A perfectly good weapon for close quarter defence in your house, but not something you can stash in your glovebox or down your jacket, and definitely not something you'd want to be found walking around a suburban housing estate with, drinking cider and annoying residents.
AJS- said:
I'm not talking about everyone having guns though. I'm talking about it being legal to have a gun in the house and use it to defend your home and family.
Because if homeowners have guns it tells burglars they should come equipped with guns as well. Currently most of them dont, because they wont need them. Getting a black eye and losing your playstation is better than getting shot in the face.AJS- said:
As for this talk of everyone going around with guns 'like they do in America' (which they don't), since handguns are already pretty much illegal here, then why not just apply the law to full length shotguns? A perfectly good weapon for close quarter defence in your house, but not something you can stash in your glovebox or down your jacket, and definitely not something you'd want to be found walking around a suburban housing estate with, drinking cider and annoying residents.
As I said several pages ago, shotgun laws are more slack than for other guns because they are hard to conceal and they dont shoot very far. But in this country having a gun for defence is not allowed and I dont see any need for that to change. Your point about drinking is interesting, this country is full of council estate dwelling drinking scum, all it takes is for bald Barry to have one too many and go outside with his legally owned shotgun in one hand and bottle of cider in the other for us to have a major problem. To combat that we may have to arm the standard police as well.martin84 said:
AJS- said:
I'm not talking about everyone having guns though. I'm talking about it being legal to have a gun in the house and use it to defend your home and family.
Because if homeowners have guns it tells burglars they should come equipped with guns as well. Currently most of them dont, because they wont need them. Getting a black eye and losing your playstation is better than getting shot in the face.martin84 said:
AJS- said:
As for this talk of everyone going around with guns 'like they do in America' (which they don't), since handguns are already pretty much illegal here, then why not just apply the law to full length shotguns? A perfectly good weapon for close quarter defence in your house, but not something you can stash in your glovebox or down your jacket, and definitely not something you'd want to be found walking around a suburban housing estate with, drinking cider and annoying residents.
As I said several pages ago, shotgun laws are more slack than for other guns because they are hard to conceal and they dont shoot very far. But in this country having a gun for defence is not allowed and I dont see any need for that to change. Your point about drinking is interesting, this country is full of council estate dwelling drinking scum, all it takes is for bald Barry to have one too many and go outside with his legally owned shotgun in one hand and bottle of cider in the other for us to have a major problem. To combat that we may have to arm the standard police as well.As for the need to change the law, see the original article. I'm not going all Daily Mail and saying this is what is happening all the time to everyone, but it still happened, in a relatively small, sensible English city. The law simply failed to protect someone.
What would you do in that situation? As I made clear earlier, I would take my chances with the law, arm myself and defend my property.
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