Pilots flying after 22 hours straight awake due to EU regs
Discussion
Over the past 18 months or so, the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) has been formulating a new set of pilot fatigue rules. What they are proposing is unscientific, unsafe and would lessen UK aviation safety – DRAMATICALLY.
Under the EU’s proposals:
• Pilots could be awake for 22 hours straight before landing their aircraft at the end of the day.
• Pilots will be made to fly further without a relief crew member meaning that they won’t be as well rested as they could be.
• And pilots could be asked to do more early starts in a row, which evidence shows is fatiguing.
These are just a few examples of where the proposed rules are far worse than those currently in place in the UK.
We are rapidly heading towards the UK Government accepting these new regulations and their coming into force. The UK Government must do more at this critical stage in the process to significantly improve the regulations or to ensure that the UK can continue to opt-out of the EU rules as we do at the moment.
Please sign the petition below if you wish to help uphold the unrivaled safety of British airlines.
http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/16050
Obligatory Daily Mail article, but remember this is a very serious issue which has to be resolved soon before the new rules are forced in.
More detailed information can be found here.
Under the EU’s proposals:
• Pilots could be awake for 22 hours straight before landing their aircraft at the end of the day.
• Pilots will be made to fly further without a relief crew member meaning that they won’t be as well rested as they could be.
• And pilots could be asked to do more early starts in a row, which evidence shows is fatiguing.
These are just a few examples of where the proposed rules are far worse than those currently in place in the UK.
We are rapidly heading towards the UK Government accepting these new regulations and their coming into force. The UK Government must do more at this critical stage in the process to significantly improve the regulations or to ensure that the UK can continue to opt-out of the EU rules as we do at the moment.
Please sign the petition below if you wish to help uphold the unrivaled safety of British airlines.
http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/16050
Obligatory Daily Mail article, but remember this is a very serious issue which has to be resolved soon before the new rules are forced in.
More detailed information can be found here.
The Big G said:
Pilots could be awake for 22 hours straight before landing their aircraft at the end of the day.
The article that backs up your stance said:
Airport standby would not count as duty so if you wake at 05:00 in the morning and begin your standby at 07:00 in the crew room, then get called to take a flight at 11:00, the EU proposal would allow flying until 01:00 next morning. This is 18 hours from the start of the standby and 20 hrs after having woken up. Add an unforeseen delay and 2 hrs of discretion and you will have been awake for 22 hours.
It just looks like someone is trying to stretch the figures to their limit to get a big headline. What do you do for 4 hours in the crew room? Why add 2 discretionary hours at the end?voyds9 said:
How much flying does a pilot actually do.
I believe most of the landings and level flights are done 'by the computer' I am not sure of the takeoff's.
I do about three auto lands a year in the aircraft. Even if I am not holding the controls all the time in the flight I'm still avoiding mountains/other aircraft/bad weather etc the autopilot is very basic and needs someone telling it what to do all the time. I believe most of the landings and level flights are done 'by the computer' I am not sure of the takeoff's.
I've woken up and found my mate asleep during a flight. Fatigue is a big issue for pilots and my airline works us far less than most.
Have I got this right, there are two pilots, and a computer (several) that do the bulk of the flying, and they are all restricted to 22 hours duty/flying?
Wow! It must be tough........
I drive 400 miles a night, without a computer to take over, or another driver to help. My nightly drive, is essentially motorway blasting, and 2 minutes attention/skill putting it on a bay.
Two completely different jobs of course, but not without similarities?
Fatigue is a problem only while in control. Doesn't the pilot/co-pilot get a rest while the autopilot takes over? Do all three sit in the cockpit for 22 hours?
Am I missing something?
Wow! It must be tough........
I drive 400 miles a night, without a computer to take over, or another driver to help. My nightly drive, is essentially motorway blasting, and 2 minutes attention/skill putting it on a bay.
Two completely different jobs of course, but not without similarities?
Fatigue is a problem only while in control. Doesn't the pilot/co-pilot get a rest while the autopilot takes over? Do all three sit in the cockpit for 22 hours?
Am I missing something?
philthy said:
Am I missing something?
Perhaps the 300 odd people sitting behind the pilots who have placed their lives in the hands of the flight crew?They might be expecting the crew to remain reasonably alert during the flight to avoid the possibility of a mid air. They might also expect the flight crew to be sufficiently well rested to land the plane safely in any weather conditions that allow it.
Flying is very very safe. It's usually landing that's dangerous.
alock said:
It just looks like someone is trying to stretch the figures to their limit to get a big headline. What do you do for 4 hours in the crew room? Why add 2 discretionary hours at the end?
For 4 hours in the crew room you sit around reading, talking , studying...whatever you want because you're on standby. That means you have no flight rostered but you are ready to cover a sick pilot/pilots going out of hours/pilot stuck in traffic etc.The 2 hours at the end are as the article says discretion hours, which are may be used to cover unforeseen events. Examples could be delayed loading due to technical problem, any other technical problem affecting the despatch of the aircraft, delays at airfield due congestion, weather....I could go on but I hope you get the idea. Flights often run into some kind of problem delaying them, sometimes significantly, and as pilots we are allowed to use up to a maximum of 3 hours discretion above our normal flying hour limit to "keep the show on the road".
Hope that clears it up, and if I were you I'd be more worried about Pilots being tired than someone grabbing headlines
Origin Unknown said:
Forgot about this by the time I got to work.
Did I hear this correct on the BBC news first thing this morning; "50% of pilots admitted to falling asleep while on the flight deck. Of those, a third admitted that when they woke up, the co-pilot was asleep"?
I hope I misheard that.
Unfortunately this is very true, even with todays rules.Did I hear this correct on the BBC news first thing this morning; "50% of pilots admitted to falling asleep while on the flight deck. Of those, a third admitted that when they woke up, the co-pilot was asleep"?
I hope I misheard that.
GC8 said:
It makes a mockery of tachograph rules, I think.
They work more restrictive hours, with less lives at risk, and if they feel to tired they can pull over and stop. Can't do this easily in the air!!voyds9 said:
How much flying does a pilot actually do.
I believe most of the landings and level flights are done 'by the computer' I am not sure of the takeoff's.
Quite a lot more than you think really, the plane will never take off itself and we do most of the landings ourselves. Especially if the weather is not very good, read windy. We also work very hard when things on the aircraft go wrong, the autopilot wont handle that by itself. I believe most of the landings and level flights are done 'by the computer' I am not sure of the takeoff's.
alock said:
The article that backs up your stance said:
Airport standby would not count as duty so if you wake at 05:00 in the morning and begin your standby at 07:00 in the crew room, then get called to take a flight at 11:00, the EU proposal would allow flying until 01:00 next morning. This is 18 hours from the start of the standby and 20 hrs after having woken up. Add an unforeseen delay and 2 hrs of discretion and you will have been awake for 22 hours.
It just looks like someone is trying to stretch the figures to their limit to get a big headline. What do you do for 4 hours in the crew room? Why add 2 discretionary hours at the end?The other thing that I should have mentioned is that the CAA have stated that the new rule set will be self regulated by the airlines themselves!!! What do you think the chances of the Loco's or even the legacy carriers not pushing things to the limits to increase productivity. The airlines have been the biggest lobbyists for the new rules too, as they can gain far greater productivity. They seem to state the old mantra "safety is our number one priority" at every possible opportunity but in reality it is making the most for the board of directors. Safety only matters if they come close to loosing an aircraft or sounds good.
k!!!http://flightlevel390.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/two-n...
A link to a blog entry where a experienced Captain has a go-around at the end of the day, and mentions being specifically careful due to tiredness.
Have a read - it's an excellent blog in any case.
A link to a blog entry where a experienced Captain has a go-around at the end of the day, and mentions being specifically careful due to tiredness.
Have a read - it's an excellent blog in any case.
Some major misconceptions of what autopilot is capable of here. Aircraft autopilot is best thought of as cruise control for a car, it automates the tedious part to allow the pilot to concentrate on other aspects.
A small selection of things autopilot can not do:
Take avoiding action against other aircraft
Avoid thunderstorms (See AF447)
Handle radio communications
Respond to air traffic re-routes without pilot intervention
Initiate changes of level to balance fuel burn vs wind speed vs turbulence
Handle abnormal/emergency situations (ie, it can not initiate emergency descent if cabin pressure is lost)
The actual physical handling of a large aircraft is about 5% of the job of being an airline pilot. Management of the systems, crew, pax and external agencies, as well as abnormal/emergency situations is the majority of the workload.
A small selection of things autopilot can not do:
Take avoiding action against other aircraft
Avoid thunderstorms (See AF447)
Handle radio communications
Respond to air traffic re-routes without pilot intervention
Initiate changes of level to balance fuel burn vs wind speed vs turbulence
Handle abnormal/emergency situations (ie, it can not initiate emergency descent if cabin pressure is lost)
The actual physical handling of a large aircraft is about 5% of the job of being an airline pilot. Management of the systems, crew, pax and external agencies, as well as abnormal/emergency situations is the majority of the workload.
Edited by 15peter20 on Wednesday 30th May 17:10
I think a truckie's job is a lot more dangerous than a pilot's.
Yes, if a plane comes down you have hundreds dead, but that requires literally minutes of screaming and hauling on the controls, fatigue would not be an issue if the plane lost (for example) all it's hydraulics.
just one little 10 second micronap from a shattered truckie could EASILY result in half a dozen deaths. the entire cockpit crew of a 777 could be asleep for 6 hours over the atlantic and noone would notice the difference.
Yes, if a plane comes down you have hundreds dead, but that requires literally minutes of screaming and hauling on the controls, fatigue would not be an issue if the plane lost (for example) all it's hydraulics.
just one little 10 second micronap from a shattered truckie could EASILY result in half a dozen deaths. the entire cockpit crew of a 777 could be asleep for 6 hours over the atlantic and noone would notice the difference.
Greg_D said:
I think a truckie's job is a lot more dangerous than a pilot's.
Yes, if a plane comes down you have hundreds dead, but that requires literally minutes of screaming and hauling on the controls, fatigue would not be an issue if the plane lost (for example) all it's hydraulics.
just one little 10 second micronap from a shattered truckie could EASILY result in half a dozen deaths. the entire cockpit crew of a 777 could be asleep for 6 hours over the atlantic and noone would notice the difference.
The most safety critical phase of flight is at the end, the landing. BA038 lost all thrust at 600ft, 1 minute from touchdown at a normal rate of descent. No minutes of screaming and hauling on the controls, just a quick decision to retract one stage of flap and some nice poleing to put it down inside airfield perimeter. Yes, if a plane comes down you have hundreds dead, but that requires literally minutes of screaming and hauling on the controls, fatigue would not be an issue if the plane lost (for example) all it's hydraulics.
just one little 10 second micronap from a shattered truckie could EASILY result in half a dozen deaths. the entire cockpit crew of a 777 could be asleep for 6 hours over the atlantic and noone would notice the difference.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Airways_Fligh...
Greg_D said:
I think a truckie's job is a lot more dangerous than a pilot's.
Yes, if a plane comes down you have hundreds dead, but that requires literally minutes of screaming and hauling on the controls, fatigue would not be an issue if the plane lost (for example) all it's hydraulics.
just one little 10 second micronap from a shattered truckie could EASILY result in half a dozen deaths. the entire cockpit crew of a 777 could be asleep for 6 hours over the atlantic and noone would notice the difference.
Couldn't be more wrong, but I'll let someone else...Yes, if a plane comes down you have hundreds dead, but that requires literally minutes of screaming and hauling on the controls, fatigue would not be an issue if the plane lost (for example) all it's hydraulics.
just one little 10 second micronap from a shattered truckie could EASILY result in half a dozen deaths. the entire cockpit crew of a 777 could be asleep for 6 hours over the atlantic and noone would notice the difference.
Greg_D said:
the entire cockpit crew of a 777 could be asleep for 6 hours over the atlantic and noone would notice the difference.
Apart from the Crew Alertness Monitor screaming blue murder at them, of course.The issue isn't with crew rest in the cruise, it is with the crew being awake but absolutely knackered in the final phases of the flight.
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