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odyssey2200
17,500 posts
78 months
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Disastrous said: I don't agree. I don't think common sense needs to be bound up in rules. Common sense says that a young girl plans her night out, including how to get how at 3 am. The thing about common sense is that it isn't common. Disastrous said: It's usually pretty obvious when somebody is taking the piss or not and I don't see why letting one off will lead to a world where everyone suddenly travels for nothing. obvious to who? Now you have to decide on a measurment of obviousness. Disastrous said: Some off the cuff examples that I don't feel need legislation, for you:
A woman clutching a baby, in the pissing rain in the middle of the day is 50p short - fine, get on. I'll pay myself if need be. very generous of you. How many times are you prepared to do that? Disastrous said: A young man holding a can of lager and obviously drunk in the middle of day - no chance. But what if she was later raped or attacked? Do rapists have a shift pattern to adhere to? Disastrous said: A bloke in a suit, stressed to the eyeballs as his car has broken down and he's late for a job interview - help a fellow out, on you get What if he isn't in a suit? What if he doesn't own a car? Disastrous said: A drunk woman at night. She's drunk and being a horror - I'd rather she got home safely, no matter how much of a cow she is.
A woman in the middle of a sunny day, demanding a ride without paying - forget it. But what if she was raped in a alley way, taking a short cut home? Would you feel responsibility for that and for applying your version of your random and subjective rules? Disastrous said: You don't need to be Sherlock Holmes to assess whether someone is in a fix and could use a bit of help. Your rules are therefore only based on your changing opinion and not the basis of a society or business.
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blindswelledrat
18,974 posts
101 months
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SO pedantic. WHy go to the lengths of isolating each specific example and inventing marginal and irrelevant theories whilst speactacularly and deliberately ignoring the actual point which is that a commonsense view is needed rather than rules
Take each case on its own merits. Thats the point.
Aren't you glad that police have hte ability to use commonsense according to each circumstance they encounter?
Every time you leave a pub a bit pissed, you get bundled to the floor and arrested for being 'drunk in a public place'. And the policeman says "I can't let you go, Id have to let everyone go
Its a ridiculous stance of yours
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NewNameNeeded
1,548 posts
94 months
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Rollin said: Exactly. No-one would have known she had not paid the 20p. Wouldn't this be apparent when cashing up and the takings for the night turn up 20p short vs. what the number of tickets issued suggested ? Couldn't that result in the bus driver being reprimanded?
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Rollin
2,249 posts
114 months
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NewNameNeeded said: Wouldn't this be apparent when cashing up and the takings for the night turn up 20p short vs. what the number of tickets issued suggested
?
Couldn't that result in the bus driver being reprimanded? I was replying to the comment stating that if he lets one person off 20p, then apparently a load of people would turn up demanding free travel.
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DonkeyApple
12,026 posts
38 months
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This does raise an issue from the operater's perspective. If a company permits all of it's front line staff a fiscal leeway on their balances what do we suppose is going to happen?
The same as happens in absolutely all cash businesses where every penny is not reconsiled daily. Employees get into the habit of pilfering.
Why is your till £5 short on this shift? Oh, I er let a woman in distress travel for free.
The comments from the bus company are from their PR/Marketing division and certainly not linked to their formal business practice.
I'm afraid that rule one is to never, ever give fiscal leeway to low wage front line employees. Simple as. One of the best ways to enforce this in most businesses is to make the individual personally accountable for any shortfalls.
So, in the event of a single 20p you would be placing a low income employee in the morally wrong position of having to decide which customer warrants a discount and which doesn't. Not only is it clearly open to comical abuse but where the driver is honest you are heaping a responsibility which is wholly unacceptable.
The world and their dog knows that you need the right change to travel on a bus, or at least enough money and the responsibility lies 100% with the customer and never with the front line employee.
It is utterly obnoxious to even contemplate the thought that someone who has been on a jolly night out on the lash should expect a low income, night worker to dig into their pocket to subsidise their journey home. Someone who genuinely thinks in that manner has something fundamentally wrong with them as a human being.
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JonRB
39,536 posts
141 months
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I'm sure this has already been said on a thread as long as this (which I confess I haven't read all of), but why didn't one of the other passengers give her the 20p she was short by rather than see a clearly distraught girl be turfed out at 3am? Also, if she was pleading with the bus driver for 8 mins surely someone would have, at the very least said, "Oh FFS here's 20p just to shut you up so we can get going again"
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10 Pence Short
27,632 posts
86 months
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I have no idea why people are trying so hard to over-extrapolate every little thing.
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odyssey2200
17,500 posts
78 months
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blindswelledrat said: Aren't you glad that police have hte ability to use commonsense according to each circumstance they encounter?
Every time you leave a pub a bit pissed, you get bundled to the floor and arrested for being 'drunk in a public place'. And the policeman says "I can't let you go, Id have to let everyone go
Its a ridiculous stance of yours In a way you have proven my point If the police arrested everyone the system wouldn't be sustainable. If bus drivers let every one off payment the system becomes untenable.
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Disastrous
3,607 posts
86 months
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odyssey2200 said: Disastrous said: I don't agree. I don't think common sense needs to be bound up in rules. Common sense says that a young girl plans her night out, including how to get how at 3 am. The thing about common sense is that it isn't common. Disastrous said: It's usually pretty obvious when somebody is taking the piss or not and I don't see why letting one off will lead to a world where everyone suddenly travels for nothing. obvious to who? Now you have to decide on a measurment of obviousness. Disastrous said: Some off the cuff examples that I don't feel need legislation, for you:
A woman clutching a baby, in the pissing rain in the middle of the day is 50p short - fine, get on. I'll pay myself if need be. very generous of you. How many times are you prepared to do that? Disastrous said: A young man holding a can of lager and obviously drunk in the middle of day - no chance. But what if she was later raped or attacked? Do rapists have a shift pattern to adhere to? Disastrous said: A bloke in a suit, stressed to the eyeballs as his car has broken down and he's late for a job interview - help a fellow out, on you get What if he isn't in a suit? What if he doesn't own a car? Disastrous said: A drunk woman at night. She's drunk and being a horror - I'd rather she got home safely, no matter how much of a cow she is.
A woman in the middle of a sunny day, demanding a ride without paying - forget it. But what if she was raped in a alley way, taking a short cut home? Would you feel responsibility for that and for applying your version of your random and subjective rules? Disastrous said: You don't need to be Sherlock Holmes to assess whether someone is in a fix and could use a bit of help. Your rules are therefore only based on your changing opinion and not the basis of a society or business. Why are you being so obsessive about categorising and qualifying every single example with bizarre 'what if?' type questions?? You genuinely do not need to legislate for this sort of thing as it really doesn't happen that often. As an example, I used to work in a bar when I was at Uni. I would frequently let people off a penny or two here and there to save them breaking a twenty, going to the cash point etc. My employer was all for this as it kept things moving and was just common sense. Now, and here's the interesting part, this did not in fact lead to the bar being over-run with the great unwashed, as you put it, all desperate for free booze because I'd 'let one away with it'. In fact, most of the people were very grateful, understanding and it was a massively occasional occurence. My examples weren't meant to constitute an entire framework of rules. There were just random examples...
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Chrisw666
20,881 posts
68 months
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10 Pence Short said: I have no idea why people are trying so hard to over-extrapolate every little thing. Maybe autism is now an airborne virus.
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odyssey2200
17,500 posts
78 months
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the only way to avoid the "what if " question is to remove all the ambeguity.
The bus is £5
Pay or walk.
To imply, as some have done, that the bus driver shares some responsibility is madness.
Only one person is quilty and that is the offender.
Some seemingly trivial decisions may be deemed poor in hindsight , such as not keeping £5 back for the bus home, not planning in advance, or walking through a quiet area at 3 Am or not letting a person off a bus fare.
But it happened that way and in a perfect world all would have been ok and the worst she would have suffered is a hang over.
Sadly it wasn't OK and no amount of wailing at the bus driver is going to change that.
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Disastrous
3,607 posts
86 months
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odyssey2200 said: the only way to avoid the "what if " question is to remove all the ambeguity.
The bus is £5
Pay or walk.
To imply, as some have done, that the bus driver shares some responsibility is madness.
Only one person is quilty and that is the offender.
Some seemingly trivial decisions may be deemed poor in hindsight , such as not keeping £5 back for the bus home, not planning in advance, or walking through a quiet area at 3 Am or not letting a person off a bus fare.
But it happened that way and in a perfect world all would have been ok and the worst she would have suffered is a hang over.
Sadly it wasn't OK and no amount of wailing at the bus driver is going to change that.
But nobody is saying the bus driver is responsible (any more). Things absolutely don't have to be black and white and ambiguity doesn't have to be removed. This is exactly why nobody can think for themselves any more, ffs! Are you like this with everything? If your wife phones and asks if you'd like salad with dinner, would you immediately demand a breakdown of all leaves used and start shouting "What if there's no iceberg, what then?" and similar at her? It's really odd!
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JonRB
39,536 posts
141 months
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I don't understand why it is *either* her fault *or* the bus driver's?
The bus driver probably didn't have the leeway to discount on behalf of the bus company. That much seems a given. But any one of the people on the bus could have dipped into their own pocket for 20p rather than seeing a young girl walking alone at 3am. It's not as if she was trying it on for a free ride - she had 96% of the fare.
People seem to be getting all het up over blame, rights, fault and legal responsibility, and completely ignoring the aspect of being a decent human being in a civilised society.
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Fatman2
1,445 posts
38 months
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JonRB said: I'm sure this has already been said on a thread as long as this (which I confess I haven't read all of), but why didn't one of the other passengers give her the 20p she was short by rather than see a clearly distraught girl be turfed out at 3am? Also, if she was pleading with the bus driver for 8 mins surely someone would have, at the very least said, "Oh FFS here's 20p just to shut you up so we can get going again" I thought this too. There are a number of things wrong with the scenario as I see it. 1) no-one offered 20p. 2) the bus driver was indifferent. 3 it actually doesn't cost the bus company anything to take one more passenger on the bus. There will always be an argument about the discretion available to the driver but if a bus is already heading to a destination and is not full then taking an extra passenger for free makes no difference at all. I was on my way home from Birmingham International a while back and when I changed at Rugby was told that my Virgin train was delayed (not cancelled) due to a sudden technical issue. As I was the only person that got off at Rugby she spoke nicely to the next non Virgin train manager and got me home for no extra cost. A ticket would have cost £26 but she got Midland to waive it. This is customer service and what greases the wheels. She, like the bus driver, could have been indifferent but she went the extra mile. I hadn't moaned to her about the delay and maybe that made the difference but either way, a little leeway and display of humanity shouldn't go amiss.
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Disastrous
3,607 posts
86 months
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Fatman2 said: JonRB said: I'm sure this has already been said on a thread as long as this (which I confess I haven't read all of), but why didn't one of the other passengers give her the 20p she was short by rather than see a clearly distraught girl be turfed out at 3am? Also, if she was pleading with the bus driver for 8 mins surely someone would have, at the very least said, "Oh FFS here's 20p just to shut you up so we can get going again" I thought this too. There are a number of things wrong with the scenario as I see it. 1) no-one offered 20p. 2) the bus driver was indifferent. 3 it actually doesn't cost the bus company anything to take one more passenger on the bus. There will always be an argument about the discretion available to the driver but if a bus is already heading to a destination and is not full then taking an extra passenger for free makes no difference at all. I was on my way home from Birmingham International a while back and when I changed at Rugby was told that my Virgin train was delayed (not cancelled) due to a sudden technical issue. As I was the only person that got off at Rugby she spoke nicely to the next non Virgin train manager and got me home for no extra cost. A ticket would have cost £26 but she got Midland to waive it. This is customer service and what greases the wheels. She, like the bus driver, could have been indifferent but she went the extra mile. I hadn't moaned to her about the delay and maybe that made the difference but either way, a little leeway and display of humanity shouldn't go amiss. This. Just to put odyssey's mind at rest, I'm assuming you don't now stride about demanding free transport from all and sundry and you haven't brought Midland down with your mile-for-an-inch taking??
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odyssey2200
17,500 posts
78 months
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there are many things in life that just don't work when left to a person's judgement. SOme do, some just don't. Even the police, you referred to only have judgement within certain confines, when the rules take over. Standards start to slip an inch becomes a mile and so on. This is never more true that when dealing with the public, particularly those who are under the influence and those of a "bus using" persuasion IYKWIM. You should try working in a city centre in the wee small hours. And salad should ALWAYS have iceberg  HTH
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toddler
1,073 posts
105 months
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another day on the buses said: All the good work gone to wasteIf ever there is a bus company held up as a shining example of good customer relations, communications and service it is Trent Barton. Trent Barton pride themselves on the friendliness, helpfulness and general good nature of their drivers who know many of their regulars by their first name. They proudly have a Wall of Fame ( https://www.trentbarton.co.uk/news-and-media/wallo...) where drivers are acknowledged for what they do. For example “On a Friday evening in January a distressed lady got on Adrian’s H1 bus at Heanor. She explained to him that she had just lost her purse and that she needed to get to Derby. Adrian came up trumps with a free ride into Derby, and even provided her with £20 of his own money so she could get home safely, which she returned back to Adrian a few days later. How’s that for service!”. So it was with complete dismay that I read the BBC news report of a young lady who’d been refused travel on the last bus of the night because she was 20p short of the required fare. She started to walk home and was then raped on the way. The bus company was Trent Barton. Absolutely tragic on two fronts. Tragic in the extreme for the young lady and tragic in a different way for Trent Barton. All the hard work of employing those who they they think are the best drivers, then allowing them freedoms none of the national operators give to make their own decisions. I heard another story of a Trent Barton driver who’s bus broke down down buying all the passengers a cup of tea at a nearby cafe while they waited for a repalcement bus. He put the receipt in to the company who actually thanked him. Try doing that as a driver for one of the nationals! A lot of Trent Barton’s hard work and investment blown by one ‘stupid’ driver. I’m sure that there must still be a pool of goodwill for Trent Barton but this goes to show just how one ill judged moment can ruin so much hard work. (Source: http://loades.net/megabusblog/) Some comments from the Trent Barton Wall of Fame: Trent Barton Wall of Fame said: On a Friday evening in January a distressed lady got on Adrian’s H1 bus at Heanor. She explained to him that she had just lost her purse and that she needed to get to Derby.
Adrian came up trumps with a free ride into Derby, and even provided her with £20 of his own money so she could get home safely, which she returned back to Adrian a few days later. How’s that for service! Trent Barton Wall of Fame said: Chris was on an evening red arrow from Chesterfield when he was approached by 3 young children at the bus station. None of them had any money, but they asked if he would take them to Alfreton. Along the way Chris found out that the children were only 12 years old and needed to get to Blackwell, quite a way from Alfreton where the coach was heading. So, to ensure their safety he took them to the Police Station in Alfreton who made sure they all got home in one piece!
Well done, Chris! Trent Barton Wall of Fame said: We recently had a letter from a customer on the se7ens who wanted to celebrate Ivan’s customer service, his cheery personality, and the fact that he refers to so many people by their first name when wishing them good morning most days.
The reason we got the letter was to tell us about an incident which shouldn’t go missed. A young lady got on the bus and realised she had left her bus pass at home which she needed for the rest of the day, Ivan knew she lived close by and if she didn’t get this bus she would be late for college so he stopped outside her house and waited while she dashed in and fetched her pass. Trent Barton Wall of Fame said: Glen was on his usual route the rainbow 4 as two girls asked him for Risley, no problems there, Glen sold them two single tickets and the bus continued its journey.
As the bus arrived in Risley, the two girls asked Glen if he knew where the Premier Inn was, Glen knew there wasn't a Premier Inn situated in Risley and asked the girls to check their paperwork. It turned out they needed Ripley in Derbyshire!
Glen did no more than take the girls back to Nottingham, refunded their money and even took them to the correct stop so as to ensure they got on the next rainbow 1 to Ripley, in return Glen received a peck on the cheek!.
Excellent work Glen, you ensured that two females who were lost were put on the right track with no fuss Trent Barton Wall of Fame said: Barry had just finished his rainbow 4 shift for the evening, when he spotted a lady with two young children sat waiting at the radcliffe line stop in the Broadmarsh, Barry asked if they were OK, she replied she was waiting for the 12pm bus back to Bingham, unfortunately it was a Thursday evening and the service only runs on a Friday and Saturday The lady had no money to get a taxi home, and with two children, it was a vulnerable place to be, so Barry quickly took them all back to Bingham making sure they all got home safely. Since then Mrs Eaton who was the lady in distress has e-mailed to thank Barry for restoring her confidence in human nature, and there's not a lot more you can say after that, well done Barry I doubt Adrian, or Chris, or Ivan, or Glen, or Barry was disciplined for their kindness. So our driver probably wasn't worried about losing his job over 20p, or waiting a couple of minutes for someone to go the nearby ATM. And it doesn't sound like Trent Barton are too concerned about people finding out how generous they can be and trying it on. They have a whole "Wall of Fame" celebrating their generosity on their website. Or have all these lovely anecdotes been invented by Trent Barton's PR and Marketing departments?
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odyssey2200
17,500 posts
78 months
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FFS Will you give it up with the Bus company!
IT WAS NOT THEIR FAULT!
They areunder no obligation to provide a discounted service.
She was silly.
Rapist is a scum.
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JonRB
39,536 posts
141 months
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odyssey2200 said: FFS Will you give it up with the Bus company!
IT WAS NOT THEIR FAULT!
They are under no obligation to provide a discounted service.
She was silly.
Rapist is a scum. I vas only obeying orderz. Seriously mate, if you are so lacking in basic humanity that you can't see that it is wrong to turf a distraught single female out onto the road at 3am over a 4% shortfall in the fare, then I feel deeply sorry for you. But mostly I'm appalled that not one person on the bus (including the driver) would dip into their own pocket for 20p.
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toddler
1,073 posts
105 months
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odyssey2200 said: FFS Will you give it up with the Bus company!
IT WAS NOT THEIR FAULT!
They areunder no obligation to provide a discounted service.
She was silly.
Rapist is a scum. Again, did you read what I posted? I posted a piece saying what a wonderful company they are, and lots of examples of how nice their drivers are, and how they've been praised publicly for their generosity by their employer. How is that blaming the bus company? I have never blamed the bus company. People have argued that he didn't let her on because he had no discretion, or he'd be sacked if his till was 20p short, or if he let her off 20p then the bus company would be bankrupt within a week because everyone would be looking for a free ride. I was trying to show how none of those arguments can explain his actions. But you keep shouting at me if it makes you feel better 
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