Simpler Tax and Benefits System
Discussion
Proposal:
- Basic Guaranteed Income of £15,000 given to all UK citizens every year.
- Flat Rate Tax of 50% on all income above £15,000.
- Repeal of National Minimum Wage.
- Repeal of all other financial benefits.
I’ve been saying that for years.
Or something similar.
I always wanted a tax free bracket of 12k.
It means that anyone can employ anyone else on a basic cash-in-hand sort of idea.
There could be a new class of ‘casual job’ that was cash in hand, no benefits, no redundancy – just money for work.
And no need for employer to worry about tax and books.
It would give a lot of small business the chance to start, it would mean there was almost always work to be found for anyone who wanted it.
It would mean that people wouldn’t get caught so easily in the trap where benefits are better than work.
As anyone on benefits would still get all their benefits until they earned more than 12k.
(yes, I would change the benefits system to have a lot loss free money)
Or something similar.
I always wanted a tax free bracket of 12k.
It means that anyone can employ anyone else on a basic cash-in-hand sort of idea.
There could be a new class of ‘casual job’ that was cash in hand, no benefits, no redundancy – just money for work.
And no need for employer to worry about tax and books.
It would give a lot of small business the chance to start, it would mean there was almost always work to be found for anyone who wanted it.
It would mean that people wouldn’t get caught so easily in the trap where benefits are better than work.
As anyone on benefits would still get all their benefits until they earned more than 12k.
(yes, I would change the benefits system to have a lot loss free money)
Stevenj214 said:
Proposal:
So a large incentive to not work and a large disincentive to work. - Basic Guaranteed Income of £15,000 given to all UK citizens every year.
- Flat Rate Tax of 50% on all income above £15,000.
- Repeal of National Minimum Wage.
- Repeal of all other financial benefits.
Stevenj214 said:
Proposal:
It would fail in the UK, given the general attitude across the bulk of society towards working for a living.- Basic Guaranteed Income of £15,000 given to all UK citizens every year.
- Flat Rate Tax of 50% on all income above £15,000.
- Repeal of National Minimum Wage.
- Repeal of all other financial benefits.
Cap tax at 20% on over 150k income. Zero tax on first 50k. Tax breaks for working families that have kids.
Scrap NI and have a central fund instead that is ringfenced for each person to pay into, with matching employer contributions - this is used to buy healthcare, pensions and can be used to fund mortgage deposits.
No benefits. No money for kids if you aren't working. Make families be responsible for supporting their own feckless instead of society as a whole.
Scrap NI and have a central fund instead that is ringfenced for each person to pay into, with matching employer contributions - this is used to buy healthcare, pensions and can be used to fund mortgage deposits.
No benefits. No money for kids if you aren't working. Make families be responsible for supporting their own feckless instead of society as a whole.
liner33 said:
Stevenj214 said:
The general attitude where the unemployment rate is currently around 8%?
How is that figure calculated??However it's calculated, it's nowhere near a 'general attitude' to not work.
Stevenj214 said:
paulmoonraker said:
It would fail in the UK, given the general attitude across the bulk of society towards working for a living.
The general attitude where the unemployment rate is currently around 8%?paulmoonraker said:
There are loads of people who earn less than that, but sustain a lifestyle. My betting would be that they would simply not work.
You don't think they would continue to work to earn more, volunteer or go on to study?Also these people will no longer receive supplementary benefits. They would be responsible for paying rent, council tax, bills, upkeep for children, etc. with no subsidy.
Snowboy said:
I always wanted a tax free bracket of 12k.
It means that anyone can employ anyone else on a basic cash-in-hand sort of idea.
No it doesn't, because if they work for you, and someone else then their income from each job may be under £12k, but over £12k in total. It would then make it much too easy for them to evade paying tax on their earnings over the £12k tax free limit.It means that anyone can employ anyone else on a basic cash-in-hand sort of idea.
Removing Housing Benefit and Council Tax Benefit alone would save £16.6bn on payments and £0.8bn on administration.
http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd5/rports2005-200...
http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd5/rports2005-200...
Stevenj214 said:
paulmoonraker said:
It would fail in the UK, given the general attitude across the bulk of society towards working for a living.
The general attitude where the unemployment rate is currently around 8%?
.Regards "living on working tax credits" being a viable lifestyle choice - knocking this on the head would be a start. I suspect this sort of thing is what paulmoonraker is referring to?
Others have made reference to the high marginal tax rates when people gain employmen and come off benefits... These (marginal tax rates) are harsh as well
.Surely a much simpler way is a flat tax of 16% or with a £10k starting point then a flat tax of 20%. This will also pay off the national debt.
This figure is on all personal income no matter where from, no exceptions.
Then corporation tax to be set at a low level to encourage companies to base themselves here.
This figure is on all personal income no matter where from, no exceptions.
Then corporation tax to be set at a low level to encourage companies to base themselves here.
mrmr96 said:
Snowboy said:
I always wanted a tax free bracket of 12k.
It means that anyone can employ anyone else on a basic cash-in-hand sort of idea.
No it doesn't, because if they work for you, and someone else then their income from each job may be under £12k, but over £12k in total. It would then make it much too easy for them to evade paying tax on their earnings over the £12k tax free limit.It means that anyone can employ anyone else on a basic cash-in-hand sort of idea.
But, for that sort of low income minimum wage sort of thing they probably wouldn’t have time to keep up two jobs.
And if they did manage to get 13000 in the year it wouldn’t really matter.
The idea is to allow casual labour to happen off the books.
It means that a builder who gets a mate to help carry some bricks doesn’t have to worry about paying PAYE and stuff.
He can just pay them cash.
Sure, it leaves a few loopholes if people want to do some illegal stuff, but that happens anyway.
It would make it a lot easier for people to stay the right side of the law when employing casual staff.
If someone was to get a full time ‘real’ job then it’s likely to pay over 12k anyway.
But labourers, paperboys, kids working in shops, carwashers and so forth can take home 1k per month without paying tax.
At uni I did a lot of part time work with temping agencies.
I had loads of hassle with passing tax codes between companies, getting taxed on wrong tax codes, getting the right P45 or P60s from several employers.
If that sort of casual work is just cash in hand (or cah in bank) without any need to tax based wrangling then the reduced hassle would save millions in admin.
aw51 121565 said:
And what is the percentage of those on "sickness benefit" (sic)? The overall unemployment figures have been, errm, massaged in the past to bring down the unemployment rate, including the exclusion of those "on the sick" from the overall figures
Disability Living Allowance accounts for 5% of the population.http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/jan/1...
It costs (or did cost) £12.6bn, along with £0.14bn to administer.
http://www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?id=2011-04-28...
Remove the need for people to 'scam' the system to get money and how many of the fraudulent claimants would suddenly find themselves able to work to top up their 'guaranteed basic income'?
How much GP time would this also free up as people no longer need to 'prove' their disability?
Edited by Stevenj214 on Monday 11th June 11:21
Snowboy said:
mrmr96 said:
Snowboy said:
I always wanted a tax free bracket of 12k.
It means that anyone can employ anyone else on a basic cash-in-hand sort of idea.
No it doesn't, because if they work for you, and someone else then their income from each job may be under £12k, but over £12k in total. It would then make it much too easy for them to evade paying tax on their earnings over the £12k tax free limit.It means that anyone can employ anyone else on a basic cash-in-hand sort of idea.
But, for that sort of low income minimum wage sort of thing they probably wouldn’t have time to keep up two jobs.
And if they did manage to get 13000 in the year it wouldn’t really matter.
The idea is to allow casual labour to happen off the books.
It means that a builder who gets a mate to help carry some bricks doesn’t have to worry about paying PAYE and stuff.
He can just pay them cash.
Sure, it leaves a few loopholes if people want to do some illegal stuff, but that happens anyway.
It would make it a lot easier for people to stay the right side of the law when employing casual staff.
If someone was to get a full time ‘real’ job then it’s likely to pay over 12k anyway.
But labourers, paperboys, kids working in shops, carwashers and so forth can take home 1k per month without paying tax.
At uni I did a lot of part time work with temping agencies.
I had loads of hassle with passing tax codes between companies, getting taxed on wrong tax codes, getting the right P45 or P60s from several employers.
If that sort of casual work is just cash in hand (or cah in bank) without any need to tax based wrangling then the reduced hassle would save millions in admin.
Another counter argument is: That it would be very easy to claim benefits and ALSO work cash in hand, and take your total income over the £12k threshold. If you're doing no paper work for your casual staff then how can you be sure they're not defrauding the tax system?
Another 'nother counter argument: If as a business owner your company is making profits, then you pay tax on those. Or you have a salary or dividend that you pay tax on as an individual. It would be very easy, if cash in hand casuals were allowed, for you to make up some phantom employees to "pay cash for labouring" when in reality there's no labouring going on, but you can take cash out of the business to buy speed boats with. So as an employer it would be easy to defraud the tax system.
I can see that if, as an employer, you didn't have to do any admin then that's preferable to you. However just because it's easier for you doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. There's a saving in your business, but what about the additional admin cost of trying to make sure that all these people paid "cash in hand" are paying the right amount of tax, there would be an immense cost and even then it would be no where near effective for the reasons above.
V8mate said:
So a large incentive to not work and a large disincentive to work.
Guaranteed Income as a Replacement for the Welfare State said:
- Most of those who remain out of the labour force will be the same people who are out of the labour force under the current system.
*Most of the people who leave the labour force will be college graduates who take time off between graduation and a permanent job or graduate school.
*The net decrease in work effort will be acceptable.
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