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ukwill
7,257 posts
77 months
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rohrl said: And nor did I say they were. I said that not all investment funds are fly-by-night hedge funds. It does not follow that all hedge-funds are fly-by-night. True. I read it as if you were classifying hedge funds as fly-by-night outfits. I should relax more. 
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Murph7355
9,452 posts
126 months
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walm said: ...any wealth equalisation measure no matter how token helps these days.... Helps what? Is this really a desired objective, ie to make everyone equally wealthy? And as I asked previously, if we accept that absolute wealth equality simply is not achievable, what is an "acceptable" level and how is it set? Moving toward wealth equality might help quieten the gossiping classes and/or the "poor" or those in "poverty", but does it really help anything else fundamentally? Indeed does it even help those sectors? If we achieve wealth equality, what would they then moan about...? 
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walm
3,458 posts
72 months
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DonkeyApple said: The real point though is that whatever someone in the private sector is paid is of no concern of those not involved. Sort-of. The pension funds clearly ARE involved as are fly-by-night hedgies, retail investors and even those passive investors such as anyone with a FTSE tracker. However, I applaud the "shareholder spring" because I firmly believe that wealth inequality is now so far out of whack that it has become socially damaging. We, as a society, are intimately involved in wealth creation and wealth division. In a situation where you are earning more in a year than you could possibly spend in a lifetime I just don't see the harm in clipping their wings. Would The Great Zuck have failed to work so hard on FB if he thought he would only become a multi-millionaire not multi-billionaire? No way. He was doing it for s  ts and giggles. Would Silicon Valley be less entrepreneurial if you took a zero or two off the lottery-win style returns a founder can achieve? No way. Would Sorrell have worked less hard last year if he thought he might get a minor pay cut this year? Hardly. Will the UK be slightly less inclined to riot if they are seeing astronomically well paid people also seeing a pay-cut. Possibly.
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DonkeyApple
12,324 posts
39 months
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walm said: Sort-of. The pension funds clearly ARE involved as are fly-by-night hedgies, retail investors and even those passive investors such as anyone with a FTSE tracker. However, I applaud the "shareholder spring" because I firmly believe that wealth inequality is now so far out of whack that it has become socially damaging. We, as a society, are intimately involved in wealth creation and wealth division. In a situation where you are earning more in a year than you could possibly spend in a lifetime I just don't see the harm in clipping their wings. Would The Great Zuck have failed to work so hard on FB if he thought he would only become a multi-millionaire not multi-billionaire? No way. He was doing it for s  ts and giggles. Would Silicon Valley be less entrepreneurial if you took a zero or two off the lottery-win style returns a founder can achieve? No way. Would Sorrell have worked less hard last year if he thought he might get a minor pay cut this year? Hardly. Will the UK be slightly less inclined to riot if they are seeing astronomically well paid people also seeing a pay-cut. Possibly. Wealth inequality is an irrelevance. All that matters is what the people at the bottom can earn. Now, the question is; is f  king over the wealth generators, business creators, employers a sensible way to protect the poorest? Does cutting the income of a CEO make the poorest better off? Unfortunately this is all a red herring fuelled by envy and self rage from middle England's massive over spending and debt ridden people. These people wanting more money for themselves don't care about the poorest. In order to help the poorest we need more employment. To get more employment we need a many fat CEOs as possible. The gap is irrelevant, it is a spurious political tool. All that matters is that those at the bottom have every chance to move up.
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Murph7355
9,452 posts
126 months
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walm said: ...
Would Sorrell have worked less hard last year if he thought he might get a minor pay cut this year? Hardly.... Maybe, maybe not. Probably unlikely in his circumstances, but he might have touted his wares with other companies and moved. Maybe to a non-UK domiciled company. And then WPP shareholders and the UK Revenue lose. Is it worth that risk? walm said: ... Will the UK be slightly less inclined to riot if they are seeing astronomically well paid people also seeing a pay-cut. Possibly. The recent riots were nothing to do with this, no matter what people might have tried to suggest. You're right that there are people wanting wealthy people "cut down to size". But how far that has to go to preclude riots who knows. And even then there will be bodies of people simply out for a ruck and a bit of looting.
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walm
3,458 posts
72 months
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Murph7355 said: walm said: ...any wealth equalisation measure no matter how token helps these days.... Helps what? Is this really a desired objective, ie to make everyone equally wealthy? No - absolutely not. I am not a pinko commie; I am a fully fledged capitalist. I believe that society today is TOO unequal. It needs to be unequal in order to provide incentives to maximise productivity/innovation/investment and all that good stuff. But it doesn't need to have gone as far as it has. You have two choices. 1. Status quo - FTSE CEOs paid more and more relative to the average worker-bee. 2. Shareholder spring - FTSE CEOs still paid a life-changing amount of money per annum but stable or lower relative to the worker-bees. I believe that society is UNNECESSARILY unequal today. In other words, all the benefits of inequality would exist EVEN IF that level of inequality was lower. Hence, I opt for option 2. As for where the foregone wealth goes - ideally it would raise the poorest up. I am sure there would be some trickle down effect as companies would either make more profit or spend the money elsewhere but I agree that it is hard to see a direct impact on the worst-off.
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walm
3,458 posts
72 months
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Murph7355 said: walm said: Would Sorrell have worked less hard last year if he thought he might get a minor pay cut this year? Hardly.... Maybe, maybe not. Probably unlikely in his circumstances, but he might have touted his wares with other companies and moved. Maybe to a non-UK domiciled company. And then WPP shareholders and the UK Revenue lose. Is it worth that risk? That's why you need a shareholder spring-like event. If ALL the companies are cutting CEO pay then WPP is still the best place for Sorrell to work and the grass isn't greener elsewhere. All that happens is that EVERY CEO is slightly worse off. In which case you might see a few more seeking early retirement but no one is jumping ship. On the riots point, of course there are untold numbers of reasons why you have riots but ALL ELSE EQUAL slightly fewer fat-cat CEOs could only help no? I am just making the point that excessive wealth inequality breeds significant discontent in a recession. A shareholder spring will do A LITTLE to mitigate that discontent.
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Laughingman21
565 posts
81 months
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walm said: All that happens is that EVERY CEO is slightly worse off. Or decides the grass is greener outside of the UK so leave and line another countries coffers with their taxes.
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DonkeyApple
12,324 posts
39 months
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walm said: That's why you need a shareholder spring-like event.
If ALL the companies are cutting CEO pay then WPP is still the best place for Sorrell to work and the grass isn't greener elsewhere. All that happens is that EVERY CEO is slightly worse off.
In which case you might see a few more seeking early retirement but no one is jumping ship.
On the riots point, of course there are untold numbers of reasons why you have riots but ALL ELSE EQUAL slightly fewer fat-cat CEOs could only help no? I am just making the point that excessive wealth inequality breeds significant discontent in a recession. A shareholder spring will do A LITTLE to mitigate that discontent. We had riots because we have an entire culture that is used to being given everything on a plate without ever working. Just like spoilt little brats they want more and more. Cutting the incomes of those at the top will not change the behaviour of those at the bottom. It would be madness to even think so.
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fido
9,481 posts
125 months
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As with the other thread, trying to connect the two issues is not really helpful except for politicians who wish to exploit an socio-economic class war. To take the famous example of the Grammar School girl who was in no way underpriveleged but decided to take part in the rioting, one presumes just for the sheer hell of it.
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rohrl
3,930 posts
15 months
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DonkeyApple said: We had riots because we have an entire culture that is used to being given everything on a plate without ever working.
Just like spoilt little brats they want more and more.
Cutting the incomes of those at the top will not change the behaviour of those at the bottom. It would be madness to even think so. Might you change your opinion on wealth inequality if it could be shown that there is a negative correlation between the overall happiness and social cohesion of nations and the degree of wealth inequality therein?
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crankedup
Original Poster
9,262 posts
113 months
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walm said: DonkeyApple said: The real point though is that whatever someone in the private sector is paid is of no concern of those not involved. Sort-of. The pension funds clearly ARE involved as are fly-by-night hedgies, retail investors and even those passive investors such as anyone with a FTSE tracker. However, I applaud the "shareholder spring" because I firmly believe that wealth inequality is now so far out of whack that it has become socially damaging. We, as a society, are intimately involved in wealth creation and wealth division. In a situation where you are earning more in a year than you could possibly spend in a lifetime I just don't see the harm in clipping their wings. Would The Great Zuck have failed to work so hard on FB if he thought he would only become a multi-millionaire not multi-billionaire? No way. He was doing it for s  ts and giggles. Would Silicon Valley be less entrepreneurial if you took a zero or two off the lottery-win style returns a founder can achieve? No way. Would Sorrell have worked less hard last year if he thought he might get a minor pay cut this year? Hardly. Will the UK be slightly less inclined to riot if they are seeing astronomically well paid people also seeing a pay-cut. Possibly. 100% AGREE.
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DonkeyApple
12,324 posts
39 months
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People in jobs are also forgetting the trickle down effect of having their boss' salary cut  It just doesn't serve any positive purpose. Cutting the salaries of CEOs won't change the wealth divide. These people do not define the top earners. It will however trickle down and impact salaries of the private sector. It's good that shareholders are taking an interest in their fiduciary duties and it's good that their custodians are paying heed but none of this will impact the wealth divide, not that the divide is relevant. As I said, the problem is people at the lowest working rung taking home less than non workers and not enough jobs. The problem with envy politics is that not only does it spike the envious but it also risks damaging the least fortunate. We need more CEOs and more businesses not fewer. But the people should be lobbying govt for support for small businesses to assist them to employ more. SMEs need support in order to compete against the multinationals. Building internal competition to these firms will not only put pressure on boards in these firms but have far reaching positive impacts on regional blights and general social woes. For 30 years govt has favoured big business over small and this needs to be reversed to bring back opportunity and cohesion to regional populations. Unemployment combined with govt incentives to not work are the roots of our problems not a small number of people at the top. But sadly the masses are thick and ignorant and will allways cut off their noses to spite their faces than stand up and do the right thing.
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rohrl
3,930 posts
15 months
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DonkeyApple said: People in jobs are also forgetting the trickle down effect of having their boss' salary cut  It just doesn't serve any positive purpose. Cutting the salaries of CEOs won't change the wealth divide. These people do not define the top earners. It will however trickle down and impact salaries of the private sector. It's good that shareholders are taking an interest in their fiduciary duties and it's good that their custodians are paying heed but none of this will impact the wealth divide, not that the divide is relevant. As I said, the problem is people at the lowest working rung taking home less than non workers and not enough jobs. The problem with envy politics is that not only does it spike the envious but it also risks damaging the least fortunate. We need more CEOs and more businesses not fewer. But the people should be lobbying govt for support for small businesses to assist them to employ more. Unemployment combined with govt incentives to not work are the roots of our problems not a small number of people at the top. But sadly the masses are thick and ignorant and will allways cut off their noses to spite their faces than stand up and do the right thing. You're not really arguing now, you're insulting people.
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crankedup
Original Poster
9,262 posts
113 months
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Laughingman21 said: walm said: All that happens is that EVERY CEO is slightly worse off. Or decides the grass is greener outside of the UK so leave and line another countries coffers with their taxes. As a Country we can no longer sustain, in terms of social acceptability, the huge pay gap that has opened up over the past ten years (400%). If some CEO'S get the ache and move out I can imagine a few foreign CEO's just waiting in the wings to fill the gap. Its a World market and this nonsense about 'we can't afford to lose him or her' just will not cut it now.
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heppers75
2,284 posts
87 months
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crankedup said: Laughingman21 said: walm said: All that happens is that EVERY CEO is slightly worse off. Or decides the grass is greener outside of the UK so leave and line another countries coffers with their taxes. As a Country we can no longer sustain, in terms of social acceptability, the huge pay gap that has opened up over the past ten years (400%). If some CEO'S get the ache and move out I can imagine a few foreign CEO's just waiting in the wings to fill the gap. Its a World market and this nonsense about 'we can't afford to lose him or her' just will not cut it now. Just out of interest, do you know any of these people (CEO's and other senior exec's) personally or had any dealings with the operation of corporations at the level we are talking about and/or have any relevant knowledge on the day to day role and responsibilities they have?
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heppers75
2,284 posts
87 months
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rohrl said: DonkeyApple said: People in jobs are also forgetting the trickle down effect of having their boss' salary cut  It just doesn't serve any positive purpose. Cutting the salaries of CEOs won't change the wealth divide. These people do not define the top earners. It will however trickle down and impact salaries of the private sector. It's good that shareholders are taking an interest in their fiduciary duties and it's good that their custodians are paying heed but none of this will impact the wealth divide, not that the divide is relevant. As I said, the problem is people at the lowest working rung taking home less than non workers and not enough jobs. The problem with envy politics is that not only does it spike the envious but it also risks damaging the least fortunate. We need more CEOs and more businesses not fewer. But the people should be lobbying govt for support for small businesses to assist them to employ more. Unemployment combined with govt incentives to not work are the roots of our problems not a small number of people at the top. But sadly the masses are thick and ignorant and will allways cut off their noses to spite their faces than stand up and do the right thing. You're not really arguing now, you're insulting people. Really? I mean the last line was perhaps a bit harsh but actually you know what our masses to prove to be exactly that on many an occasion so whilst harsh it does seem to have some weight. The rest however seemed to be making some sense, or did you just skip to the last line decide to take offence and ignore the rest?
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crankedup
Original Poster
9,262 posts
113 months
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DonkeyApple said: walm said: That's why you need a shareholder spring-like event.
If ALL the companies are cutting CEO pay then WPP is still the best place for Sorrell to work and the grass isn't greener elsewhere. All that happens is that EVERY CEO is slightly worse off.
In which case you might see a few more seeking early retirement but no one is jumping ship.
On the riots point, of course there are untold numbers of reasons why you have riots but ALL ELSE EQUAL slightly fewer fat-cat CEOs could only help no? I am just making the point that excessive wealth inequality breeds significant discontent in a recession. A shareholder spring will do A LITTLE to mitigate that discontent. We had riots because we have an entire culture that is used to being given everything on a plate without ever working. Just like spoilt little brats they want more and more. Cutting the incomes of those at the top will not change the behaviour of those at the bottom. It would be madness to even think so. Agree cutting top salaries will not change overnight the behaviour of those at the bottom, at least not in isolation of other policies. The thing is social and economic inequality is one of the major factors causing unrest and the disaffected feeling, especially in the under 25 years group. For those persons who feel the need to rage and riot perhaps they will always want to behave that way, I don't know. However, there are good young people out there desperate to break out of unemployment, the two groups shouldn't be seen as one perhaps.
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crankedup
Original Poster
9,262 posts
113 months
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heppers75 said: crankedup said: Laughingman21 said: walm said: All that happens is that EVERY CEO is slightly worse off. Or decides the grass is greener outside of the UK so leave and line another countries coffers with their taxes. As a Country we can no longer sustain, in terms of social acceptability, the huge pay gap that has opened up over the past ten years (400%). If some CEO'S get the ache and move out I can imagine a few foreign CEO's just waiting in the wings to fill the gap. Its a World market and this nonsense about 'we can't afford to lose him or her' just will not cut it now. Just out of interest, do you know any of these people (CEO's and other senior exec's) personally or had any dealings with the operation of corporations at the level we are talking about and/or have any relevant knowledge on the day to day role and responsibilities they have? Sorry I am going to have to duck this one, If I say yes I will have to name them and speak of my association with them, if, on the other hand I say no you will suggest that I do not have the knowledge to speak of such things. So how do I counter this, perhaps I will simply say its for me to know only and you will have to form your own conclusions. TBH I cannot see it makes very much difference either way regarding this particular discussion, but I do understand your motives for asking. 
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fido
9,481 posts
125 months
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crankedup said: The thing is social and economic inequality is one of the major factors causing unrest and the disaffected feeling, especially in the under 25 years group. Says who? You really think Tyrone, 17 in Alton Estates knows even who Sorrell is - he most likely doesn't read the Grauniad? Or is he thinking about 'sticking it to the man' when he's bagging another pair of trainers from JJB Sports in Oxford Street with his mates?
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