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wiggy001

2,958 posts

140 months

[news] 
Tuesday 26th June 2012 quote quote all
Eric Mc said:
turbobloke said:
Eric Mc said:
wiggy001 said:
I like the idea of a flat rate but with a tax break for low earners. I despise the mentality that says that those that do well should contribute more, and a flat rate just seems fairer to me.
You do realise that a flat rate of tax will ALWAYS ensure that high earners pay more?
But proportionately as they earn more, not disproportionately as now.
I know that.

You know that.

But some people do seem to be confusing the effect of a Flat RATE of tax as opposed to a straight Flat Tax amount.
No confusion here Eric, although I now realise that stating that a flat amount of tax MAY be seen as fair by some, and then stating my own preference for a flat rate of tax might've confused some people.

Alex

6,246 posts

153 months

[news] 
Tuesday 26th June 2012 quote quote all
The best proposal I have seen for a UK flat tax is here:

http://www.2020tax.org/

I think the problem any government will have introducing a flat tax will be the wails that it is a "tax cut for the rich". That argument has to be won.

bobbylondonuk

1,762 posts

59 months

[news] 
Tuesday 26th June 2012 quote quote all
Alex said:
I think the problem any government will have introducing a flat tax will be the wails that it is a "tax cut for the rich". That argument has to be won.
Give a generous tax free allowance that will make most low paid workers better off or even out of taxable income. maybe 15k???? or even higher. Just make sure that employers also dont pay any NI upto that limit. Suddenly cost of labour is cheaper at the low end and employment is attractive!

Eric Mc

67,256 posts

134 months

[news] 
Tuesday 26th June 2012 quote quote all
Alex said:
The best proposal I have seen for a UK flat tax is here:

http://www.2020tax.org/

I think the problem any government will have introducing a flat tax will be the wails that it is a "tax cut for the rich". That argument has to be won.
Funny how Peak Performance are members of the 2020 Group smile

roachcoach

2,960 posts

24 months

[news] 
Tuesday 26th June 2012 quote quote all
bobbylondonuk said:
Alex said:
I think the problem any government will have introducing a flat tax will be the wails that it is a "tax cut for the rich". That argument has to be won.
Give a generous tax free allowance that will make most low paid workers better off or even out of taxable income. maybe 15k???? or even higher. Just make sure that employers also dont pay any NI upto that limit. Suddenly cost of labour is cheaper at the low end and employment is attractive!
Common sense won't be allowed to prevail in the media/public eye.

If cutting the top rate of tax by 1% cured cancer, people would still go mental.
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fbrs

7,638 posts

132 months

[news] 
Tuesday 26th June 2012 quote quote all
Steffan said:
I am reasonably certain that Jimmy Carr woll be out of pocket with the K2 scheme. The fees were pretty substantial, upfront and non returnable. There will be significant costs extracting himself. The Revenue will want interest on any unpaid tax due and there may be penalties. Which can be up to 100% of the tax in addition to the tax due.
agreed. everyone i know who has tried these schemes has lost money

rohrl

3,725 posts

14 months

[news] 
Tuesday 26th June 2012 quote quote all
Eric Mc said:
Funny how Peak Performance are members of the 2020 Group smile
I'd have thought they'd be lobbying for a 95p top rate to drive some more business their way. smile

TTmonkey

7,372 posts

116 months

[news] 
Tuesday 26th June 2012 quote quote all
Steffan said:
I am reasonably certain that Jimmy Carr woll be out of pocket with the K2 scheme. The fees were pretty substantial, upfront and non returnable. There will be significant costs extracting himself. The Revenue will want interest on any unpaid tax due and there may be penalties. Which can be up to 100% of the tax in addition to the tax due.

That amounts to a pretty hefty sum. Which is why I have always thought such schemes very risky and possibly disastrously so, if like K2, they cause this much trouble for the clients. The notoriety may be good for Jimmy Carr. It is not good for the majority of taxpayers.
If the Prime Minister has already gone on record as saying something along the lines of "Jimmy Carr has done nothing illegal (but soemthing immoral)", can the inland revenue impose penalties on for it? Or even insist on repayment?

Manks

5,018 posts

91 months

[news] 
Tuesday 26th June 2012 quote quote all
hollydog said:
Did i say anything about all paying the same rate. No i didn't.
There's know getting round it the super rich are getting away with out paying the right tax amount they should do . If they are making money hear pay they should right amount of taxes not try and avoid them. Its just taking the p--s.It can't go on forever just look at greece.I have said this before you can't keep on milking the country and not putting back.In the end it will have to stop.
Yep, we need more tax from the rich to pay for schools.


turbobloke

55,484 posts

129 months

[news] 
Tuesday 26th June 2012 quote quote all
hollydog said:
the super rich are getting away with out paying the right tax amount they should do...

...can't go on forever just look at greece
The amount of tax anybody should pay, not just the super-rich, is the lawful amount and as tax avoidance is lawful until declared otherwise, only people engaging in tax evasion are getting away without paying the right amount of tax, including Greece where tax avoidance and lots of evasion have been taking place at both ends of the income spectrum.

andyroo

2,226 posts

79 months

[news] 
Tuesday 26th June 2012 quote quote all
The concept of 'fairness' seems to have a different meaning when it comes to tax. Say four people went to pub, three average earners and one a high earner, fair would be considered each person buying a round. Sure, the high earner could subsidise the drinks of the others, but the others would be grateful for it.

The way tax (and to a degree, society) works is that the average earners would demand their beers subsidised for it to be fair, and would still criticise the high earner for having more money. Bizarre.

Given a government expenditure last year of £691 billion, every citizen of the UK would need to pay just under £10k in tax to pay their own share. To pay that much tax requires earning £50k, double the average wage, so that means the majority of people in the UK are living subsidised lives. It also means that Jimmy Carr's 1% tax from his £8 million earnings not only paid for his own share, but the shares of seven other people too.

And for some reason, he is considered not to be paying his fair share.

Halb

17,859 posts

52 months

[news] 
Tuesday 26th June 2012 quote quote all

turbobloke

55,484 posts

129 months

[news] 
Tuesday 26th June 2012 quote quote all
andyroo said:
The way tax (and to a degree, society) works is that the average earners would demand their beers subsidised for it to be fair, and would still criticise the high earner for having more money. Bizarre.
Possibly coming soon to a leaking pipe near you...'social water rates'.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/households-social-tariffs...

Alcohol could be next wink


andyroo

2,226 posts

79 months

[news] 
Tuesday 26th June 2012 quote quote all
turbobloke said:
Possibly coming soon to a leaking pipe near you...'social water rates'.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/households-social-tariffs...

Alcohol could be next wink
I hope they check the homes requiring subsidisation for Apple and Sky products first nono

turbobloke

55,484 posts

129 months

[news] 
Tuesday 26th June 2012 quote quote all
andyroo said:
turbobloke said:
Possibly coming soon to a leaking pipe near you...'social water rates'.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/households-social-tariffs...

Alcohol could be next wink
I hope they check the homes requiring subsidisation for Apple and Sky products first nono
There was me thinking you'd mention coke and hookers paperbag

andyroo

2,226 posts

79 months

[news] 
Tuesday 26th June 2012 quote quote all
turbobloke said:
There was me thinking you'd mention coke and hookers paperbag
Are they being subsidised as well? It is a basic human right to get your rocks on and off after all

hollydog

909 posts

61 months

[news] 
Wednesday 27th June 2012 quote quote all
Just been reading more into k2. It looks to me ( sorry if iam wrong )as some form of money laundering. Isn't that illegal.biggrin

Eric Mc

67,256 posts

134 months

[news] 
Wednesday 27th June 2012 quote quote all
The Money Laundering provisions are so wide that ANY attempt to avoid tax MIGHT be construed as Money Laundering.

Ayahuasca

16,057 posts

148 months

[news] 
Thursday 28th June 2012 quote quote all
So I was sitting in an airport on a Caribbean island today and saw this handsome machine waiting for its lucky owner to board. Sorry about the crappy photo, it was a fantastically shiny aircraft in the flesh as it should be for a USD 60 million private jet (Gulfsteam 550 if you are interested).



Note it sports an Irish tricolour.

Being bored I googled the registration number to find out who owned her.

Step forward one of Ireland's richest billionaires.

Ireland being in dire financial straits obviously has need of her successful citizens to pay their fair share of tax. So it was interesting to learn that this company is incorprated in the Caribbean and its owner is personally resident in Malta. Malta, purely coincidentally, doesn't charge tax on worldwide wealth and to qualify as a 'resident' one only needs to own a property there and visit it once.

Clever man.








Edited by Ayahuasca on Thursday 28th June 03:55

Tim330

442 posts

81 months

[news] 
Thursday 28th June 2012 quote quote all
I work as a contractor & last year a friend introduced me to one of these schemes (he was after the sign up a mate bonus!) I didn't join as it looked a bit dodgy to me but here are the key details (couldn't copy in the diagrams) from the presentation. I've removed the company name.

Two recent surveys make sober reading:
Freelance World found majority of accountants do not understand IR35
Accountancy survey found 4 in 5 contractors are caught by IR35
Recent HMRC attack on construction industry is typical of the new attempt to get more tax from contractors
New tax rates in 2010 will increase tax costs
The risk profile of one man band limited companies has risen dramatically
Jon Bessell, owner/MD of Dragonfly and a member of PCG, said he was devastated by the £99k IR35 High Court judgement
John Brazier, managing director of PCG, said „This case threatens the long-established defences against IR35&;
61656;The KEY points are:
–the contractor can no longer ensure he is in control of his IR35 Status
–The contractor faces prolonged uncertainty
–Even those comfortable with their status face a difficult economic decision about the cost of defending it –the marketing of fear
–The tax being demanded has already been spent over a number of years
–IR35 assessments can be collected from the directors personally

Structure choices
Risk
Reward
Comments

Employment
None
Very low
52 –65%
Employer suffers NIC and employment costs

Self employment
High
Low
55 –65%
Status risk
No shelter from highest rate of tax

Limited company
High
Medium
55 –70%
Company admin
IR35 and income shifting concerns

Umbrella
Low
Medium
65-68%
Expenses targeted by HMRC

  • *** Contracts
Very low
High
79 –82%
Best balance of risk and reward

Who Is It For?
Contractors who:
Are either self employed, work through their own company, or are in an agency or umbrella company
Earn more than £50k per annum gross
Have a small number of recurring contracts
are liable to UK income tax
Contact us if you work overseas, or in an unusual or dangerous occupation

Key Benefits
81% return on contract value after ALL costs
Eliminates IR35 and MSC risk
Provides 27% saving on inheritance tax
No costs of entry or exit
No minimum contract period –leave at any time
No admin apart from a timesheet
High class service standards
Bad debt cover

10How It Works
Contractor becomes employee of ***** Trust
He is hired out to customers and ****** Contracts does the administration of the contract
Part of contract paid as minimum wage salary
Balance is paid as a discretionary bonus into a trust for the contractor every 4 to 6 weeks
Contractor takes an interest-free loan from the trust
Loan is never written off

FAQ -Are there any delays in getting my money?
You will get your money in two ways:a) Monthly salary on the 10thof each monthb) Bonuses paid into the trust to be taken as loans
Bonuses are paid 10 times per year, at four to six week intervals
This means 2 months when no bonus is paid –double bonus next month
Bonus dates available in advance to ensure cashflow is planned for
This is most acute when you join the scheme
Three ways to deal with this:
–Emergency loans up to £5k from *****
–Emergency bonuses from ***** Trust
–Contractor has overdraft facility of at least £5k

Where does the 20% go?
All tax and NI on your income
Payroll Processing
All meetings/Correspondence
Dealing with Tax/HMRC queries in relation to IOM employment
Invoicing/Debtor collection
Professional Indemnity Insurance up to £1million
Employer‟s Liability/Public Liability Insurance
Discretionary bad debt cover
Trustee Costs
Q.C. and Legal/Tax opinions

15FAQ -Do I have to repay the loan?
In practice, extremely unlikely
Nearly 10,000 businesses and contractors have used this mechanism and no-one has yet had to repay it.
However, there needs to be the POSSIBILITY of repayment, otherwise it would not be a loan –Dextra ruling
IMPORTANT: the trustees administering the trust are obliged by both LAW and the terms of the trust deed to act in the interests of the beneficiary
When will a request to repay the loan ever be in the interest of the contractor?
The trustees themselves cannot, under any circumstances, derive any benefit from the money held in the trust –just like pension funds.
Even if the loan were repaid, the trust would then hold an equivalent amount for the benefit of the contractor, so unlike repaying a third party, you would in effect be repaying yourself.

What happens when I die?
Deduct loan from value of estate for probate
Income tax implications of write off disappear
Beneficiaries step into shoes of contractor
They may request write off of loans on the basis the person who took them out has passed away
Trustees must act SOLELY in the interests of the new beneficiary when assessing the request

FAQ -Will the loan affect my credit status?
No. The loan is a private arrangement, and not disclosed publicly via credit rating agencies.
Your salary is low compared to the gross contract value, but we can arrange a letter in support of your gross earnings which is normally sufficient for any mortgage lenders.

FAQ -Are there any tax effects of the loan?
One –an annual tax charge, equivalent to 0.3% of the loan in first year for the majority of contractors (ie those earning less than £250k pa).
Cost is far less than mortgage interest
Costs exceeded by interest earned on extra return
This charge only lasts as long as you are on the scheme
Other ways to look at this tax charge:
-As a cost of inheritance tax reductions -0.3% to get 27% saving
–As a cost of outsourcing all administration
–As a cost of transferring business and tax risk to *** and ****
–As a cost of insurance lower than annual PII cover

21Why It Works
Both IR35 and the Managed Service Company legislation attack payments to employees that are not employment income
All the payments we make are classified as employment income under ITEPA 2003
Loans to employees from EBTs are not taxable
MSC Regulations don‟t attack trusts
This position has been endorsed by four tax barristers

Why is **** Trust in Guernsey?
Nothing to do with secrecy!
Firstly, HMRC attacks on EBT planning in UK concentrate on CT deduction, BUT trusts are not taxed in Guernsey, so this attack doesn‟t work.
Secondly, the financial regulatory regime is much stricter in Guernsey than mainland UK, which provides reassurance that your affairs will be run properly
It is worth noting that while **** is in Guernsey, it still operates UK PAYE.


23What are my tax risks?
Basically, minimal.
Tax scheme used by the company, not the contractor
NIL assessment under IR35 and MSC
Since contractors become employees, they cannot be liable for any tax levied on their employer under PAYE, IR35 or MSC
MSC regulations don‟t apply to trusts, so debt cannot be transferred
Scheme structure established by DEXTRA case 2002 –employee loans not challenged until 2009 when HMRC lost again (Sempra Metals)
Retrospective legislation is extremely unlikely:
–Breaches human rights legislation
–Not been done for 50 years
–All legislation against EBTs applies from that date on
–Taxpayer entitled to certainty of the law in decision-making
No tax hangover if scheme is closed

24What are the scheme risks?
IMPORTANT -not all EBT / loan schemes are the same
Forums are well-meaning, but often populated by the noisy and ignorant, and even HMRC!
You cannot go to prison, get fined, get investigated just for becoming an employee of ours
The marketing of fear, based on partial truths from bad schemes
Look at the integrity and professionalism of those behind the scheme to understand whether it works


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