Immigration

Author
Discussion

TheHeretic

73,668 posts

254 months

Sunday 1st July 2012
quotequote all
Apache said:
Ah, she's in Straldzha, Yambol.
She like it?

Apache

39,731 posts

283 months

Sunday 1st July 2012
quotequote all
TheHeretic said:
Apache said:
Ah, she's in Straldzha, Yambol.
She like it?
Loves it.....looks a little, er, rural to me though. Mind you, the feeling of being away from it all appeals in a big way but I doubt there's any work there for me

TheHeretic

73,668 posts

254 months

Sunday 1st July 2012
quotequote all
Apache said:
Loves it.....looks a little, er, rural to me though. Mind you, the feeling of being away from it all appeals in a big way but I doubt there's any work there for me
Lots of it looks like it is in the late 1800's, early 1900's. Folks still using scythes in the fields, horse and carts, taking livestock onto the fields, family farms doing stuff by hand, and so on. I like it. It has character, and I like the simplicity. Saying that, I got faster internet than when I was in the states. A place of contradictions.

muffinmenace

1,029 posts

187 months

Sunday 1st July 2012
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elster said:
Not just old people, all generations now.
Got any links? I'm genuinely intrigued if they are

TotalZ4

72 posts

146 months

Sunday 1st July 2012
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elster said:
You do realise how many of those types of people come into the country?

Bugger all.
You wish.



TheHeretic

73,668 posts

254 months

Sunday 1st July 2012
quotequote all
TotalZ4 said:
You wish.
You have any facts for your position?

obob

4,193 posts

193 months

Sunday 1st July 2012
quotequote all
TheHeretic said:
TotalZ4 said:
You wish.
You have any facts for your position?
No he doesn't seeing as none EU immigrants can't claim benefits and the EU ones mostly cone here to work anyway.

As for British people in the Costas its mainly criminals and try asking the Spanish if they like it.

Frik

13,542 posts

242 months

Sunday 1st July 2012
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FrankyH said:
85% of our country was White British way back in 2001, from the census. They have been allowing well over half a million in every single year since then. Quick maths tells us they already make up 20 odd %, and they are still letting more in.
No it wasn't and no they haven't, so your simple maths doesn't work. Rubbish in, rubbish out and all that.

bga

8,134 posts

250 months

Sunday 1st July 2012
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muffinmenace said:
You mean the oldies going there to live out their days? Not exactly going to join the social housing queue and live on the dole are they? hehe
The oldies put a big strain on the local health infrastructure, especially as English speaking health staff have to be shipped in to deal with the Brits who can't be arsed to learn the local lingo.

Colonial

13,553 posts

204 months

Monday 2nd July 2012
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TotalZ4 said:
You wish.
So my sister and het partner, an architect and a fund manager, who earn in excess of 100k are just spongers?

No. Wait. They are white so not an issue.

AJS-

15,366 posts

235 months

Monday 2nd July 2012
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cymtriks said:
AJS- said:
cymtriks said:
*Where are millions of extra people going to live? Which green belts, flood plains, ancient heaths or woodlands will have to go to build the houses? Remember we are talking about several extra cities the size of Birmingham. Remember that this will be on top of the housing problems that we already have.
How about we knock some of the crusty old victorian terraces down, such as the one I used to live in in zone 2, in London, and build some proper modern, purpose built condos that would actually accommodate the people who want to live there. In which case, I imagine it would be quite possible to actually free up land.
I would imagine that this wouldn't increase the overall land use of an entire city by very much. Then you would have the problem of actually convincing all of the current occupants to leave.

We are talking about several extra cities the size of Birmingham, your solution is hopelessly inadequate.
I think you would be wrong about that.

Land use - a purpose build block of condos might have 10 floors, let's assume 12 units a floor (based on the one I stayed in in Bangkok) that's 120 units in an area the size of 3 shabby old houses with maybe 7 or 8 bedsits each.

As for convincing occupants to leave, the economics of it would make developers pretty keen to put a compelling case.

As for the crappy council estates that are currently full of dole scroungers, no convincing to do - just give them a date and tell them they're getting cleansed.

Of course the first, and probably only step needed to achieve this would be throwing out our stupid, prescriptive and glacial paced planning process.

AJS- said:
cymtriks said:
*Which valleys will have to be flooded to make new reservoirs? Answer the question and let's hear the views of the people who live there.
Or we could have a couple of desalination plants.
Very expensive and very energy intensive. Why should we pay for this for people who have yet to arrive here when there is no benefit to us at all? How big will these plants have to be to provide for millions of people, where will they be put, what do people living there think?

The same questions, always ducked.
You pay for it, as with all utilities, to meet the demand. The idea though is that it pays for itself in the long term, by extra tax and bill payers, paying more taxes and bills

AJS- said:
cymtriks said:
*We are told that it's a good thing because there are so many immigrant experts. Are there actually more doctors and scientists per head among immigrants than among those already here? If not then this is a false argument as they won't even be covering their own needs. If true then why isn't our really great (as evidenced by those stunning A level grades) education system generating our own experts? Is it ethical or sustainable to import more and more experts from abroad while failing to deal with our own inability to nurture enough ourselves?
Make sure it's more than the local population by requiring it for a visa.

Why aren't we producing our own experts - I would hazard a guess that it's because the financial incentives are skewed by the NHS, punitive taxation and exorbitant housing costs.

cymtriks said:
  • The work ethic issue keeps being mentioned. Why is this so noticeable? Why is the only solution to import workers from abroad? Why won't we correct something so obviously wrong with our systems?
Because come election time, ~55% of the people realise that their primary source of income is the state, and consistently vote against governments who try to reduce it's size.
cymtriks said:
  • When assimilation is complete (don't hold your breath) what makes you think that the work ethic we hear so much about will still be there? After all the only solution is to give up on our own and import people. If it isn't the only solution then why are we still importing workers on this pretext after so long?
Because the world is a big place and the mandated minimum wage is easily enough to attract millions more people to the UK. Why pay more?
Why don't we face up to these issues first? Why is our solution to utterly fail to deal with this and then say "Oh well, we'll just import some people, and when they go the same way we'll just import a few more...". This is obviously unsustainable.
Because the largest part of the electorate would rather not face any issues, and instead try and recreate some false golden age of low taxes and high spending, with Mercedes and character houses for everyone, no more than 20 minutes commute from their 100,000 GBP a year job.

So long as politicians keep promising this people en masse are dumb enough to keep voting for it.

AJS- said:
cymtriks said:
  • Given that it takes a long time and a lot of money to plan and build new roads, schools and hospitals how will our existing services cope until the the new worker's taxes start to work through the system. Will more debt be required? More PFI? Higher taxes for those already here to fill the gap? Remember that this is a rolling problem, not a one off event.
How about we allow the market to decide on these questions?
That's just it though isn't it, the market won't so it will turn out to be the taxpayer.
Again.
That's only because you seem to see government as the solution to everything.

AJS- said:
cymtriks said:
*How much population is enough? 70 Million? 80 Million? 100 Million?
93,783,541
Or any other arbitrary number you care to throw out there.

cymtriks said:
*Why can't we have a "one in - one out" or even "one in - two out" policy?
Why?

Is the goal to have an empty country?
Is the goal to have 70 Million?
Why?
What would be wrong with 50 Million?

All of the issues I've mentioned will be made worse by increased population and many would be improved with less. At the moment our solution is unsustainable, it relies on an endless stream of new people not yet affected by the problems our systems create, to hide those problems and then still more people to hide the problem that they too will be affected.
All of these problems are actually caused by government interventions skewing incentives and having unpredictable effects over the course of several decades. As noted in another thread, the UK has absolutely masses of untouched land, all over the place, it's just badly utilised.

Fresh water and road space might be more of a problem, but not insurmountable.

Halb

53,012 posts

182 months

Monday 2nd July 2012
quotequote all
scenario8 said:
My Mother in Law is Irish. Please can she be the first on the ferry?

Edited by scenario8 on Sunday 1st July 17:06
Les we've missed you!

elster

17,517 posts

209 months

Monday 2nd July 2012
quotequote all
muffinmenace said:
elster said:
Not just old people, all generations now.
Got any links? I'm genuinely intrigued if they are
Just a general google search brings up this.

http://www.byebyeblighty.com/spain/

stating 40% Under 45, 40% 45-64 So that leaves 20% 65+

I go to Spain a couple of times a year to do some work, and especially around the Gibraltar area in Andalucia there is lots of young Brits moving over there with work

elster

17,517 posts

209 months

Monday 2nd July 2012
quotequote all
TotalZ4 said:
elster said:
You do realise how many of those types of people come into the country?

Bugger all.
You wish.
readit Step away from the Daily Mail!

I take it you don't know many people abroad to make that comment, as the UK certainly doesn't have an immigration problem.

France for example you will find whole towns that are full of immigrants and many illegal (an lot more than ours)

Bring some stats into the debate and we will see where they go This is the big flaw to the Immigration argument, is the whole I met a foreigner so it must be bad aspect and random individual cases that the press will use. Yet never any evidence of this huge immigration problem.

VXRuss

1,547 posts

189 months

Monday 2nd July 2012
quotequote all
obob said:
EU ones mostly cone here to work anyway.
What do the others do whilst they're here then?

rb5er

11,657 posts

171 months

Monday 2nd July 2012
quotequote all
elster said:
the UK certainly doesn't have an immigration problem.

rofl

Perhaps not compared to some countries, but we sure do have lots of problems made much worse due to mass immigration.

Schools
Healthcare
Housing
Employment
Begging
Crime

Or do you honestly think immigration does not contibute to these problems?

Chris Type R

8,018 posts

248 months

Monday 2nd July 2012
quotequote all
VXRuss said:
obob said:
EU ones mostly cone here to work anyway.
What do the others do whilst they're here then?
Explains why you can't see the workers for the cones in sections of road works on the motorway.

elster

17,517 posts

209 months

Monday 2nd July 2012
quotequote all
rb5er said:
elster said:
the UK certainly doesn't have an immigration problem.

rofl

Perhaps not compared to some countries, but we sure do have lots of problems made much worse due to mass immigration.

Schools
Healthcare
Housing
Employment
Begging
Crime

Or do you honestly think immigration does not contibute to these problems?
Schools - This is quite a problem I will give for those non-english speakers and lack of foresight by councils for changes in population be it UK migration or overseas immigration.

Healthcare - Without the immigration the NHS would struggle to function
Housing - If you are meaning social housing, then that is more due to the lack of houses built over the past 20 years and they have been sold off prior. As for private tennants, where is the problem.

Employment - Without immigration then a lot of services could not be done. Manual unskilled work for one. There is no longer an appetite in most British workers to do the manual work that is deemed beneath people. This was a job section that previously employed miners as a mass cheap employment. However this sector is now labourers, factory workers, etc which many see is below them. Without the immigration a lot of businesses would not survive. It is also good to have a large amount of money invested back into the country with the immigration of skilled workers.

Begging - OK, I'll give you that one

Crime - There is absolutely no difference in crime between immigrants and UK nationals as a proportion of the community, except for 3.14keys

Fatman2

1,464 posts

168 months

Monday 2nd July 2012
quotequote all
I don't honestly think we have a problem as we have as many people leaving as we do arriving.

The British have traditionally been travellers. There are umpteen holiday destinations around Europe and British holiday reps is one such industry, whether it be sun or snow, that attracts masses of Brits to live/work abroad.

I've worked with loads of contractors that have spent years working all round the world for periods of 2+ years, with families.

People from all sorts of industries, at all levels, move abroad to work all the time. Just in the same way that doctors and cleaners move here and I don't have a problem with it.

The problem I have is listening to TV interviews with 2nd generation immigrants moaning about the Poles and saying that they're taking 'our' jobs. Now that's irony.

Murph7355

37,648 posts

255 months

Monday 2nd July 2012
quotequote all
elster said:
...
I take it you don't know many people abroad to make that comment, as the UK certainly doesn't have an immigration problem.

France for example you will find whole towns that are full of immigrants and many illegal (an lot more than ours)

Bring some stats into the debate and we will see where they go This is the big flaw to the Immigration argument, is the whole I met a foreigner so it must be bad aspect and random individual cases that the press will use. Yet never any evidence of this huge immigration problem.
Without wishing to sound argumentative (I'm genuinely interested), do you have the relative stats for "problematic" immigration across the EU?

I'm aware of places in France and Germany (amongst others) that have towns like those you mention, but do not know whether they are more prevalent than here or not. I'm not even sure if such things are legitimately measured (or can even be
measured).