House of Lords Reform - 70 Tory Rebels Sign Letter Opposing

[Derek Smith]

rs1952 said:

Derek Smith said:

Labour will, of course, try and exploit the fracas. That's what political parties do. Actually running the country is way down on all their 'to do' lists.

This encapsulates the reason why I personally oppose the notion of an elected second chamber.

In the lower house we have politicians of all parties apparently spending more time slagging each other off and trying to make life difficult for the other lot than they do spend in actually doing something worthwhile. The root problems are the political party system itself, and the tribal nature of the population, where far too many vote for one party because the family always has or because of misguided ideas of "class loyalty" (add your own reason if you prefer - there are plenty of them)

We are now faced with the real possibility that the party machines will be able to take precedence in the upper house as well.

If political affiliation was banned in the upper house and it was full of independents I might consider an elected chamber to be a better idea.

Yup, agree wholeheartedly. Few would not. It's the system we've got and the politicians love it as it's more fun than actually having to do anything like real work.

[MartinM]

There was very little wrong with the upper house before Blair's lot started fkering with it and corrupting it with his cronies.

[colonel c]

MartinM said:

There was very little wrong with the upper house before Blair's lot started fkering with it and corrupting it with his cronies.

Was that because there was in-built Conservative majority in the Lords?

[0a]

Fun times ahead tonight:

Labour to reject any Lib Dem deals

Lords reform: Government considers scrapping vote to save legislation - will Cameron do this given it will infuriate the 100 strong backbench rebels...

[0a]

No 10 have confirmed that the programme motion is being withdrawn, Bill kicked down the line for a while at the very least

[scenario8]

What a mess! Again.

[0a]

scenario8 said:

What a mess! Again.

Good. Hopefully it will be dropped or Labour will force a referendum so kicking it into the long grass...

[Skywalker]

Is killing the Bill an act of courage or cowardice?
I am glad it has been pulled, but who else apart from Cleggie is a loser over this?

[0a]

Skywalker said:

Is killing the Bill an act of courage or cowardice?
I am glad it has been pulled, but who else apart from Cleggie is a loser over this?

To be clear the Bill has not been dropped, but the limit on the debate time has meaning it can go on and on.

There is a long way to go yet.

[davepoth]

0a said:

Skywalker said:

Is killing the Bill an act of courage or cowardice?
I am glad it has been pulled, but who else apart from Cleggie is a loser over this?

To be clear the Bill has not been dropped, but the limit on the debate time has meaning it can go on and on.

There is a long way to go yet.

A very, very long way to go. This makes Clegg look like an idiot regardless - he's pushed far too hard for massive constitutional change in this parliament, and as it turns out the populace don't seem like it. I think that's the case with the Lords - the only people who want more professional politicians are, rather unsurprisingly, politicians.

[0a]

Indeed. This will now drag on and on and the bill has lost legitimacy. Labour would be justified in pushing for a referendum (and claiming a victory when they get it) or Cameron may chose to end the debate and kill the bill due to the amount of time it is taking.

[Derek Smith]

MartinM said:

There was very little wrong with the upper house before Blair's lot started fkering with it and corrupting it with his cronies.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/jul/10/cit...

No need to change the system at all.

[maddog993]

Derek Smith said:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/jul/10/cit...

No need to change the system at all.

and a bit earlier this year;
http://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/2012/04/24/a-...

[Caulkhead]

scenario8 said:

What a mess! Again.

I'm happy to see any mess caused by MP's voting the way they believe rather than following the party whip.

[Derek Smith]

Caulkhead said:

I'm happy to see any mess caused by MP's voting the way they believe rather than following the party whip.

This has the stench of a campaign with a very strong subtext. This does not appear to be MPs sticking up for what they feel is right but an attempt to cause harm to the libdems.

[elster]

Derek Smith said:

Caulkhead said:

I'm happy to see any mess caused by MP's voting the way they believe rather than following the party whip.

This has the stench of a campaign with a very strong subtext. This does not appear to be MPs sticking up for what they feel is right but an attempt to cause harm to the libdems.

Hardly, even the Lib Dems who stood up to speak said the Bill wasn't ideal. There was a single person who stood up to say how great the bill was. They only got up to speak about reform and democracy.

The fact is the Bill is terribly written and a 15 year single term using PR from party lists is not really democratic or accountable.

[jshell]

Paddy_N_Murphy said:

Say

Cons, might not be popular, but the country might just see that they are digging the country out of the hole, and continue to back them...

I think you're deluded. I think the average levels of hatred are getting close to those for Brown/Blair. Just imho.

[MartinM]

Derek Smith said:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/jul/10/cit...

No need to change the system at all.

As I said, there was very little wrong with the hereditary system.

[stevejh]

jshell said:

Paddy_N_Murphy said:

Say

Cons, might not be popular, but the country might just see that they are digging the country out of the hole, and continue to back them...

I think you're deluded. I think the average levels of hatred are getting close to those for Brown/Blair. Just imho.

I don't think it's got that bad just yet but I do think that many Conservatives (from all wings of the party) are fed up with with the u-turns, cock-ups and general ineffectiveness of DC and GO. I would love to blame it all on the Lib-Dems but I think everyone can see that it's the Tory leadership that is really at fault.

Labour are still riding surprisingly (considering they got us in this mess) high in the polls, the Lib-Dems aren't and the Conservatives look like they will lose a lot of votes to UKIP but not enough for UKIP to actually make any significant headway. All in all if we had an election soon I fear Labour would get back in.

[MartinM]

colonel c said:

Was that because there was in-built Conservative majority in the Lords?

Why on earth do you say that? I personally think that the ideal HoL should be totally free of party politics. Many of the hereditary peers were cross-benchers anyway and the ones that had links to a political party hardly towed the party line.