LIBOR 'arrests imminent' - no doubt just a few traders...

[Eric Mc]

There are eight more trails pending. Who are the people in the queue?

[Derek Smith]

turbobloke said:

Violence, vulnerable woman, multiple rape in day-long ordeal: 9 years, 2015.

http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/13217674.J...

Nothing like 14 years, not even double figures.

Seven years according to the report.

The idea that a long period of imprisonment is the only form of suitable punishment for such offences is wrong. It clutters up the prisons with people who are unlikely to offend again and are not dangers to the public. We should have prison sentences for the likes of this rapist, one who committed a series of offences against a vulnerable adult, that protect the public. he's got 7 years and will be out in a bit over 3. So a sentence of 3 and a bit years. He should at the very least serve the full seven and be subject to close supervision for as long as it is feared he will offend again.

Imprisonment is expensive and, the research suggests, unproductive. Recidivism is high and not related to length of sentence. Indeed, there is a statistical correlation between length of sentence and the likelihood of reoffending for certain offences.

People should be punished for certain offences but banging up those unlikely to offend again is not the only way, it is not the best way in many cases, to punish them. The best deterrent is to charge them and find the guilty of the offences. Whatever happens after that is almost immaterial with regards to recidivist behaviour.

However, I'm sure someone will be along in a minute or two and point out that this occurred over two months ago and things have changed greatly since then.

One thing we can be assured of though: no political pressure would have been exerted on the judicial system to ensure a signal was sent out to those who want to bring money into this country.

[turbobloke]

Derek Smith said:

turbobloke said:

Violence, vulnerable woman, multiple rape in day-long ordeal: 9 years, 2015.

http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/13217674.J...

Nothing like 14 years, not even double figures.

Seven years according to the report.

OK, if so, thanks for that clarification. There were so many examples it must have been a mix-up cross-over choosing between links and light sentences. Either way it supports your pov does it not?

[johnfm]

Eric Mc said:

Dragging up a 13 year old case to prove a point I don't think proves anything. Attitudes to crimes change over time. I expect that law treats rape a lot more seriously than it did 13 years ago. We know that even four or five years ago the authorities weren't keen on doing any serious investigation into child molesting. Look how that has suddenly changed in a few short years.

At last the law certainly seems to want to treat fraud a lot more seriously now (and about time too).

There are eight more cases linked to the LIBOR scandal due in court over the next few years. Let's see what happens with them.

It wasn't fraud. It was a conspiracy to defraud charge.

Fraudstars are rarely caught let alone charged - not enough resource.

[Eric Mc]

Will he have to pay back any of the commissions he earned?

[johnfm]

Eric Mc said:

Will he have to pay back any of the commissions he earned?

Is this an additional scapegoat tax for the pleasure of the baying mob?

[Eric Mc]

Well, if he obtained the funds illegally - which by definition must be true as he is now a jailbird, it would have to be seen as a "proceed of crime" and refundable to his employer (ironically).

Indeed. it wouldn't help the taxpayer because,. if he had to pay it back, HMRC might have to pay back the taxes and NI they collected on his illegally earned bonuses.

[trickywoo]

johnfm said:

Eric Mc said:

Will he have to pay back any of the commissions he earned?

Is this an additional scapegoat tax for the pleasure of the baying mob?

It does raise the question as to how people equate wealth with jail time. If you think the chances of getting caught are slim and the chances of paying back any proceeds from the crime slimmer would you be more inclined to carry out the crime in the first place?

If you could steal say £15m and know that you can keep it no matter what how much jail time would you risk. I'd say there are a lot more people willing to do 7 years if they get caught and can keep the money than know that they couldn't keep the money if caught.

[Bluebarge]

fblm said:

Bluebarge said:

I suspect the number of "victims" of the crime would also have an impact. LIBOR is used for many loan products, so any artificial inflation of the rate would potentially affect millions of people, making them pay more than they should.

According to the prosecutors and regulators in the barclays case, the most egregious manipulation of rates was down!

Then I guess lenders lost and, by extension, their shareholders. Swings and roundabouts I suppose. I suspect it being such a prestigious benchmark may also have had something to do with it. This did leave the City looking very foolish.

[turbobloke]

Bluebarge said:

fblm said:

Bluebarge said:

I suspect the number of "victims" of the crime would also have an impact. LIBOR is used for many loan products, so any artificial inflation of the rate would potentially affect millions of people, making them pay more than they should.

According to the prosecutors and regulators in the barclays case, the most egregious manipulation of rates was down!

Then I guess lenders lost and, by extension, their shareholders. Swings and roundabouts I suppose. I suspect it being such a prestigious benchmark may also have had something to do with it. This did leave the City looking very foolish.

The City? It certainly left a small number of individuals looking like they were conspiring to defraud.

[johnfm]

Eric Mc said:

Well, if he obtained the funds illegally - which by definition must be true as he is now a jailbird, it would have to be seen as a "proceed of crime" and refundable to his employer (ironically).

Indeed. it wouldn't help the taxpayer because,. if he had to pay it back, HMRC might have to pay back the taxes and NI they collected on his illegally earned bonuses.

How will you figure out which additional funds are a result of his phone calls?

Is there any evidence yet that, given how many banks set Libor and that the upper and lower figures are discarded etc, that his heinous conspiracy had any effect whatsoever on the actual level of Libor?

Even if so, that effect would have been minuscule and his share of any gains would have been only a fraction of any alleged gains.

Suggesting that all his bonus is proceeds of crime is just daft.

[johnfm]

Bluebarge said:

fblm said:

Bluebarge said:

I suspect the number of "victims" of the crime would also have an impact. LIBOR is used for many loan products, so any artificial inflation of the rate would potentially affect millions of people, making them pay more than they should.

According to the prosecutors and regulators in the barclays case, the most egregious manipulation of rates was down!

Then I guess lenders lost and, by extension, their shareholders. Swings and roundabouts I suppose. I suspect it being such a prestigious benchmark may also have had something to do with it. This did leave the City looking very foolish.

Is there any actual evidence to suggest that rates were actually depressed as a result of these various calls? Isn't the rate arrived at by removing upper and lower 'outliers'? Or is there a suggestion that every single offered rate from every setting bank was lower as a result of mars Bars and curries?

[Eric Mc]

johnfm said:

How will you figure out which additional funds are a result of his phone calls?

Is there any evidence yet that, given how many banks set Libor and that the upper and lower figures are discarded etc, that his heinous conspiracy had any effect whatsoever on the actual level of Libor?

Even if so, that effect would have been minuscule and his share of any gains would have been only a fraction of any alleged gains.

Suggesting that all his bonus is proceeds of crime is just daft.

I didn't say all his bonus was result of his crimninal activity. But it wouldn't be beyond the wit of a few financial bods to work out what proportion of it was. Why should he and his family benefit financially from his wrongdoings?

[johnfm]

Eric Mc said:

I didn't say all his bonus was result of his crimninal activity. But it wouldn't be beyond the wit of a few financial bods to work out what proportion of it was. Why should he and his family benefit financially from his wrongdoings?

I expect his bonus was 'discretionary', rather than linked directly to his Libor rate dealing - bu who knows.

Pretty obvious this guy is a scapegoat and the sentence has been used to 'flush out' some testimony from those waiting in the wings so they can go after the guys higher up who also knew how the system was being run.

[anonymous-user]

Derek Smith said:

Eric Mc said:

I would also like to see some substantiation that rape cases produce lower sentences than fraud cases, in UK courts.

I'm not sure you would, but here goes.

Nasty stuff

Seven years, that's all.

This was in 2002 and we all knew, the police, the judge, the defence team and the bloke himself, that he would do the same thing again but this time would probably abduct the next victim and dispose of the body in a manner that might negate the DNA.

Half the time for fraud. But then there was no political necessity. The penalty would have no financial benefits to the country. Thee was, apparently, no need for a signal to be sent that this was somehow a bad thing to do.


Out in a bit over three years to do something worse sooner or later.

This chap is no danger to the public. He will not do the same thing again, he will assault anyone, or threaten to kill them - meaning it one of the inquiry team reckoned.

I could give you others if you want, Eric.

Jesus. One would hope that he got a quiet, on the side, hiding-of-his-life from the BiB/prison staff for that. Not very PC but then again I don't think the perp would be that bothered about PC/human rights...

[Soov535]

johnfm said:

Eric Mc said:

I didn't say all his bonus was result of his crimninal activity. But it wouldn't be beyond the wit of a few financial bods to work out what proportion of it was. Why should he and his family benefit financially from his wrongdoings?

I expect his bonus was 'discretionary', rather than linked directly to his Libor rate dealing - bu who knows.

Pretty obvious this guy is a scapegoat and the sentence has been used to 'flush out' some testimony from those waiting in the wings so they can go after the guys higher up who also knew how the system was being run.

Bang on John.

This is flushing out the grouse.....

[Eric Mc]

The law is often used "to send a message".

Isn't the "deterrence factor" part of its purpose?

[johnfm]

Eric Mc said:

The law is often used "to send a message".

Isn't the "deterrence factor" part of its purpose?

Can't disagree with that - but if they are wanting to deter and 'send a message' why haven't they sought to go after those higher up the ladder (i.e. the CEOs etc). Further, why have they not chosen to deter MPS who fraudulently claimed expenses. No conspiracy - actual fraud. Only a handful of MPs were charged when it was pretty clear that hundreds had met the necessary ingredients of the offence of fraud.

[Eric Mc]

100% agreed. Those further up the chain should be facing the law too. Having said that, I don't know the identities of those others who are awaiting trial so maybe a few more senior people are waiting for their moment in court too.

[fido]

Eric Mc said:

100% agreed. Those further up the chain should be facing the law too. Having said that, I don't know the identities of those others who are awaiting trial so maybe a few more senior people are waiting for their moment in court too.

Problem is Eric, this goes up all the way to the BBA - hardly fair to hang one guy for a system that was so easy to fiddle. Fixing the system (which they appear to be doing now as I have various jobs related to LIBOR in my in-tray) would be better than sending people to jail .. if it wasn't so political.