How do you solve the North/South divide?
Discussion
There's nothing particularly wrong with one part of a country being more economically productive than another part. It is a factor in most countries but it's important that each area works best for the people in that area. I don't think we should get into a mindset that the North is essentially a massive drain on the taxpayer and should cease to exist though. Remarks like 'get on your bike' are unhelpful also because if someone from Manchester takes a job in Cambridge, you then just end up with someone in Cambridge out of work instead of someone in Manchester. People flocking to the South East does nothing to help the North - or the South East, for that matter.
In America there can be a canyon of difference between economies of each state, geography plays a massive part as well and the brutal fact is you'll make more money in banking than farming, lets not pretend otherwise. You wouldn't put New York City's financial centre in the middle of rural Utah would you? The difference between the US and UK is each state gets to set its own taxation and minimum wage laws. Wyoming's minimum wage is almost half that of Washington because their economies and industries are different. Wyoming doesn't levy an income tax on individuals or businesses and nor does it have Inheritance tax. It's all about finding a system which works for each area.
In the UK employers NI in the north of Newcastle is the same as in the West of London. As a national economy we have become too London-centric as we focus on service industries too much. Seeing as this is the result of successive Government's policies, it's only right the State therefore pays to prop up the North. I agree once upon a time the Mines had to go, the whole business about unprofitable industries being kept open and all the rest of it but in the same spirit as Mrs Thatcher you have to acknowledge splurging endless amounts of public money across the North is also essentially keeping an unprofitable industry open.
In America there can be a canyon of difference between economies of each state, geography plays a massive part as well and the brutal fact is you'll make more money in banking than farming, lets not pretend otherwise. You wouldn't put New York City's financial centre in the middle of rural Utah would you? The difference between the US and UK is each state gets to set its own taxation and minimum wage laws. Wyoming's minimum wage is almost half that of Washington because their economies and industries are different. Wyoming doesn't levy an income tax on individuals or businesses and nor does it have Inheritance tax. It's all about finding a system which works for each area.
In the UK employers NI in the north of Newcastle is the same as in the West of London. As a national economy we have become too London-centric as we focus on service industries too much. Seeing as this is the result of successive Government's policies, it's only right the State therefore pays to prop up the North. I agree once upon a time the Mines had to go, the whole business about unprofitable industries being kept open and all the rest of it but in the same spirit as Mrs Thatcher you have to acknowledge splurging endless amounts of public money across the North is also essentially keeping an unprofitable industry open.
JB! said:
Not getting full 3G for starters!
I looked at houses in S
horpe the other day. Impressive value for money, but then you'd have to live in Shorpe?
I watched an article about West Africa rolling out it's 4G network last week...... Investment is needed. (Can't see China paying for it here)I looked at houses in S
horpe the other day. Impressive value for money, but then you'd have to live in Shorpe?S
horpe, I know very little about, it's almost Yorkshire 
and on the wrong side of the Country, what did you expect 
UF said:
I watched an article about West Africa rolling out it's 4G network last week...... Investment is needed. (Can't see China paying for it here)
Shorpe, I know very little about, it's almost Yorkshire and on the wrong side of the Country, what did you expect
Work for me is Derby based, family in MK & London so ideally M1 corridor for me, know anywhere nice?S
horpe, I know very little about, it's almost Yorkshire and on the wrong side of the Country, what did you expect Why would we assume the blanket approach is right when it has failed spectacularly for 20 years? The north east, which I know quite well, has USSR levels of public spending and it hasn't worked.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-388153/Bro...
It didn't work in the real Soviet Union either.
Cut back on spending, deregulate and people sort it out for themselves.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-388153/Bro...
It didn't work in the real Soviet Union either.
Cut back on spending, deregulate and people sort it out for themselves.
martin84 said:
There's nothing particularly wrong with one part of a country being more economically productive than another part. It is a factor in most countries but it's important that each area works best for the people in that area. I don't think we should get into a mindset that the North is essentially a massive drain on the taxpayer and should cease to exist though. Remarks like 'get on your bike' are unhelpful also because if someone from Manchester takes a job in Cambridge, you then just end up with someone in Cambridge out of work instead of someone in Manchester. People flocking to the South East does nothing to help the North - or the South East, for that matter.
In America there can be a canyon of difference between economies of each state, geography plays a massive part as well and the brutal fact is you'll make more money in banking than farming, lets not pretend otherwise. You wouldn't put New York City's financial centre in the middle of rural Utah would you? The difference between the US and UK is each state gets to set its own taxation and minimum wage laws. Wyoming's minimum wage is almost half that of Washington because their economies and industries are different. Wyoming doesn't levy an income tax on individuals or businesses and nor does it have Inheritance tax. It's all about finding a system which works for each area.
In the UK employers NI in the north of Newcastle is the same as in the West of London. As a national economy we have become too London-centric as we focus on service industries too much. Seeing as this is the result of successive Government's policies, it's only right the State therefore pays to prop up the North. I agree once upon a time the Mines had to go, the whole business about unprofitable industries being kept open and all the rest of it but in the same spirit as Mrs Thatcher you have to acknowledge splurging endless amounts of public money across the North is also essentially keeping an unprofitable industry open.
Pretty good points.In America there can be a canyon of difference between economies of each state, geography plays a massive part as well and the brutal fact is you'll make more money in banking than farming, lets not pretend otherwise. You wouldn't put New York City's financial centre in the middle of rural Utah would you? The difference between the US and UK is each state gets to set its own taxation and minimum wage laws. Wyoming's minimum wage is almost half that of Washington because their economies and industries are different. Wyoming doesn't levy an income tax on individuals or businesses and nor does it have Inheritance tax. It's all about finding a system which works for each area.
In the UK employers NI in the north of Newcastle is the same as in the West of London. As a national economy we have become too London-centric as we focus on service industries too much. Seeing as this is the result of successive Government's policies, it's only right the State therefore pays to prop up the North. I agree once upon a time the Mines had to go, the whole business about unprofitable industries being kept open and all the rest of it but in the same spirit as Mrs Thatcher you have to acknowledge splurging endless amounts of public money across the North is also essentially keeping an unprofitable industry open.
I'd say the last government's "don't worry about industry, the financial sector is where it's at" approach was staggeringly idiotic. Sadly, yet again, we find ourselves saddled with a government that niether knows nor cares about the 'real' private sector.
The response that people can help themselves is not wrong (although Puggit might consider it wise to keep his thoughts in his head, and thereby stay intact and unharmed if he does venture north of Berkshire any time soon
), it's just that broadly speaking, the government needs to get out of the way to allow them to do this more easily. Remeber all that red tape cutting that was going to happen when the coalition got in?Digga said:
Remeber all that red tape cutting that was going to happen when the coalition got in?
They've been such a crushing disappointment. At least with New Labour, one knew where their sympathies lay. With this mob, it seems expediency and being seen to be doing the right thing at that very moment and damn the consequences, rules.As a soft southern bar steward, I'd say the only answer lies in the North...it's up to them.
Once upon a time, a long time ago, t'North was full of enterprising mill owners just gagging to out-stately-home their neighbour, or construct an even bigger dark satanic mill, largely based around Northern finance and ingenuity. These industries were created, no blueprints, and lead the World.
Where has this mindset gone? Mind you, they've still got JCB...
Once upon a time, a long time ago, t'North was full of enterprising mill owners just gagging to out-stately-home their neighbour, or construct an even bigger dark satanic mill, largely based around Northern finance and ingenuity. These industries were created, no blueprints, and lead the World.
Where has this mindset gone? Mind you, they've still got JCB...
The Don of Croy said:
As a soft southern bar steward, I'd say the only answer lies in the North...it's up to them.
Once upon a time, a long time ago, t'North was full of enterprising mill owners just gagging to out-stately-home their neighbour, or construct an even bigger dark satanic mill, largely based around Northern finance and ingenuity. These industries were created, no blueprints, and lead the World.
Where has this mindset gone? Mind you, they've still got JCB...
That mindset is still around, it's held back by all the crap that comes from London - Bank on Dave an example of the hoops that must now be jumped through to progress.Once upon a time, a long time ago, t'North was full of enterprising mill owners just gagging to out-stately-home their neighbour, or construct an even bigger dark satanic mill, largely based around Northern finance and ingenuity. These industries were created, no blueprints, and lead the World.
Where has this mindset gone? Mind you, they've still got JCB...
I think some on this thread need to head North and see what a fantastic and vibrant (in some areas) Country they live in.
As a northerner who got on his bike at 18 and moved south for 20-odd years before recently returning up north, the thing that allowed me to move back was the fact I could work in an office at home using the internet. In fact, I found I was spending more and more time working from home when I lived in the SE as the commute seemed such a grind for no real benefit.
As a manager of people across Europe, I no longer need to be located in London, I could work anywhere since I either spend time in the office or I'm on a plane somewhere. That office might as well be anywhere, so I moved back to my native North Yorkshire 3 years ago.
North Yorkshire Council is investing millions now in high speed broadband for the rural areas of the county, with 80mb being bandied about. The hope is that investment in the infrastructure (it used to be roads, now it's broadband) will attract those businesses who don't need to be in the SE but perhaps are for reasons other than proximity to London.
The thing that makes me think the idea is doomed is, as someone hinted at earlier, people in the SE seem to think that life outside the SE is somehow inferior - it's a generalisation but London dwellers are parochial and I don't see how anything will tempt them away, regardless of how much cheaper it is to live in the north and how the quality of life, especially for children can be so much better.
As a manager of people across Europe, I no longer need to be located in London, I could work anywhere since I either spend time in the office or I'm on a plane somewhere. That office might as well be anywhere, so I moved back to my native North Yorkshire 3 years ago.
North Yorkshire Council is investing millions now in high speed broadband for the rural areas of the county, with 80mb being bandied about. The hope is that investment in the infrastructure (it used to be roads, now it's broadband) will attract those businesses who don't need to be in the SE but perhaps are for reasons other than proximity to London.
The thing that makes me think the idea is doomed is, as someone hinted at earlier, people in the SE seem to think that life outside the SE is somehow inferior - it's a generalisation but London dwellers are parochial and I don't see how anything will tempt them away, regardless of how much cheaper it is to live in the north and how the quality of life, especially for children can be so much better.
No north/south divide in engineering. The rate varies with the local cost of living/availability but we're all one big happy family propping up the unproductive-financial-selfserving-cocksleaves(who put value on thin air) since the industrial revolution.
If you relocate the financial sector, you relocate the perceived wealth.
If you relocate the financial sector, you relocate the perceived wealth.
I believe we Londoners would find it hard to be parochial. Disinterested, maybe, definitely not parochial.
Therein lies the North's problem, IMO. Many in the South East don't care about the goings on North of Watford. They are aware, just unconcerned.
It will be nigh on impossible to change this. So, it is for the regions to develop their own methods of stimulating their economies. As was eloquently pointed out above. To do that, you need a fair measure of real economic autonomy from Westminster.
That ain't gonna happen. Ergo, you're all stuffed.
Therein lies the North's problem, IMO. Many in the South East don't care about the goings on North of Watford. They are aware, just unconcerned.
It will be nigh on impossible to change this. So, it is for the regions to develop their own methods of stimulating their economies. As was eloquently pointed out above. To do that, you need a fair measure of real economic autonomy from Westminster.
That ain't gonna happen. Ergo, you're all stuffed.
Blib said:
I believe we Londoners would find it hard to be parochial. Disinterested, maybe, definitely not parochial.
Therein lies the North's problem, IMO. Many in the South East don't care about the goings on North of Watford. They are aware, just unconcerned.
It will be nigh on impossible to change this. So, it is for the regions to develop their own methods of stimulating their economies. As was eloquently pointed out above. To do that, you need a fair measure of real economic autonomy from Westminster.
That ain't gonna happen. Ergo, you're all stuffed.
Isn't disinterest in the affairs of people outside your area just another form of parochialism? Surely that's what we mean when we say it.Therein lies the North's problem, IMO. Many in the South East don't care about the goings on North of Watford. They are aware, just unconcerned.
It will be nigh on impossible to change this. So, it is for the regions to develop their own methods of stimulating their economies. As was eloquently pointed out above. To do that, you need a fair measure of real economic autonomy from Westminster.
That ain't gonna happen. Ergo, you're all stuffed.
The problem with economic autonomy, if by that you mean the ability to raise taxes locally, is that there is no-one to tax. You need to attract business to the area before you can tax tax them - OK you might be able to offer lower business rates, but you'd have to apply them to the businesses already there which would lower your income in the short to medium term.
The problem needed tackling 20 or more years ago and the last government's solution, as it was to so much was simply to create a client state whether through welfare or government employment (creating the jobs from thin air as they went). All that did was to mask the real problem which is that the north's wealth creating industries have long since packed up and gone to the low cost labour countries.
The problem you have now is that the rot is so far advanced there is no simple answer. Massive sums of money are needed to tempt businesses and (just as importantly) people out of the SE and up north through financial and infrastructure incentives and I doubt any government, let alone one in the middle of a recession would be willing to throw the sums of money needed with no guarantee of success.
Apropos of the discussion: http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/07/26/uk-britai...
More hot air, nothing of substance to add.
"Getting housing moving", great! Does that imply adding more debt? If they want the market to loosen a little, scrap stamp duty.
If they want business to create jobs, cut the red tape. Do it now and do it hard.
Steps of soapbox and retires to dark room for another lie down.
More hot air, nothing of substance to add.
"Getting housing moving", great! Does that imply adding more debt? If they want the market to loosen a little, scrap stamp duty.
If they want business to create jobs, cut the red tape. Do it now and do it hard.
Steps of soapbox and retires to dark room for another lie down.
Mark Benson said:
Isn't disinterest in the affairs of people outside your area just another form of parochialism? Surely that's what we mean when we say it.
The problem with economic autonomy, if by that you mean the ability to raise taxes locally, is that there is no-one to tax. You need to attract business to the area before you can tax tax them - OK you might be able to offer lower business rates, but you'd have to apply them to the businesses already there which would lower your income in the short to medium term.
Not in London's case. In my book, 'parochialism' is in part fear ir wariness of others. London is a World city. It acts internationally and operates in part outside of UK economic norms. One example is the housing market which in many parts of the city has barely stuttered in the current recession. I travel throughout the country. Nowhere else comes close in terms of wealth. Just look at the quality of cars in the suburbs. Yes many are on the never never. But many more are paid for outright. Go out into the country and you'll be lucky to find more than a handful of expensive dars in a day.The problem with economic autonomy, if by that you mean the ability to raise taxes locally, is that there is no-one to tax. You need to attract business to the area before you can tax tax them - OK you might be able to offer lower business rates, but you'd have to apply them to the businesses already there which would lower your income in the short to medium term.
London is a World city which happens to be situated on rhis island.
The regions need tax raising powers and, just as important, if not more so, tax cutting powers.. only rhen will they experience growth without government meddling.
ETA: apologies for iphone generated spooling.
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