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hyperblue

2,121 posts

49 months

[news] 
Friday 3rd August 2012 quote quote all
IroningMan said:
The problem is that state schools don't do sport - sport involves competition which means winners and losers. It also means a school day that extends beyond 3.30 in the afternoon.
yes At my school we had the option of sport and other activities every afternoon from 3.30 - 5.30. This meant that both my parents could work full time to (just about) afford the fees.

FiF

18,399 posts

120 months

[news] 
Friday 3rd August 2012 quote quote all
el stovey said:
Is anyone criticising the squad? Surely it's a criticism of the state education system.
Agreed he isn't criticising the squad, but calling for "an overhaul of the education system."

So how would a Government address this?

I'm sure one "right" way would be to reverse the appalling state of state school facilities, sports fields sold off bla bla bla. With the financial state of the nation that won't happen under any Govt of any hue, so what options are left? If it was Labour no doubt it could come with some sort of positive discrimination, perhaps, which is a more than slightly jaundiced comment admittedly.

I'm also slightly worried by the holding up of football as an example of good practice considering the goings on in the professional game, on and off pitch.

Twincam16

27,230 posts

127 months

[news] 
Friday 3rd August 2012 quote quote all
crankedup said:
XCP said:
English Athletics charging ridiculous amounts to enter competitions does not help. If my son had entered the SW champs this year, I would have seen no change out of £100. And that was for the privilege of representing his county. And then they wonder why no-one turns up.
Try motorcycle racing, to keep a superbike on the grid is around 3k for the weekends racing. Add a crash and its even more eye watering, both financially and riders health!
And yet ironically it seems to me most British motorcycle racers seem to come from working-class, comprehensive-school backgrounds. Most bike racers seem to have a family background in mechanics and rode bikes round fields from a very young age.

I think there are a number of problems with state school sport:

-Playing fields being sold off. Also, computers being given far too much prominence within the school leading to sports halls being converted into computer suites. The private sector doesn't seem to feel the need to offload its assets like that. I was lucky enough to go to a state school with facilities for just about every sport that didn't involve a horse or water, but many schools these days are just down to some tennis courts, a football pitch and one multi-use hall.

-A left-wing teaching union/Labour government hatred of competition that might produce winners and losers.

-A curriculum that's more bothered about getting kids to meet targets to satisfactory levels rather than developing their sports. Most state schools teach fixed sports on cycles, so you effectively just have 'taster sessions' of every sport on repeat. If someone shows promise, they might be encouraged to join an after-school team, but in the private sector if someone shows promise they are coached as part of the PE lesson itself. As a result, talent can be spotted early on and nurtured.

As ever, the state sector is completely hamstrung by the people who run it, who are so blinkeredly left-wing they can't see how their obssession with a narrow set of political ideas coupled with a disastrous target-led culture is ruining the lives of the kids sent through it.

I've said it before, but one of Blair's biggest crimes was against his own country. He inherited an education system that worked perfectly well and proceeded to ruin it. Having trained as a teacher, worked in several schools and decided to throw in the towel having had enough of the system's fatal flaws, I've seem the wreckage, even at the school that I myself attended. And I know full well that if I went through that school now I'd have come out the other side a lot thicker, a lot fatter and with the attention span of a gnat. The values it used to be run on during the Major era, of rigour and taking pride in your work, were positively demonised under Labour.

There are good kids in those schools, but they're marching into the battleground that is the real world with one hand tied behind their backs, up against kids from public schools taught as individuals rather than a statistic to make the local council look good.

There's a grain of a good idea in the new academies. However, the power of the teaching unions needs serious curtailing (lobbying over pay and conditions is fair enough, but they're exerting a hard-left influence over the way kids are educated and have been doing for decades. If you're a teacher and you don't sign up to the union line on politics you're left high and dry), the inspection regime needs reorganising to focus on teaching quality rather than points-scoring, and the league tables IMO need to be reduced to once every four years, with a rolling average taken.

And the exam boards. One for each subject. Annual independent review as to what gets you an A*/A/B/C etc with no fiddling or quibbling. No grades to exist below C- - if you don't get a C-, you fail. It's a total farce that people can say they have 'x-number of GCSEs' when they can 'pass' with something as low as a G.

emicen

Original Poster:

5,693 posts

87 months

[news] 
Friday 3rd August 2012 quote quote all
I dont know how it goes with private schools in England, but football just wasnt entertained up here in Scotland.

So an equally interesting counter arguement may be; if private schools bothered with football, how many more than the current 7% of professionals would be from that background.

The point thats been made regarding the difference in attitude to sports outside normal school hours is very pertinent. If you played for any of the rugby teams in my school you just accepted you were going to be staying behind for a couple of hours, 2 nights a week, and losing most of your Saturday. You aimed to be part of that group.

eccles

7,703 posts

91 months

[news] 
Friday 3rd August 2012 quote quote all
10 Pence Short said:
eccles said:
I grew up in South Wales in the 70's, football didn't really appear on our radar at all.
That's because electricity, never mind radar, hadn't even hit Wales by the 70s.
That's original, never heard that before.

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obob

2,986 posts

63 months

[news] 
Friday 3rd August 2012 quote quote all
FiF said:
Quite amused by the vote results in the Telegraph on this link

Is Lord Moynihan right to raise the issue in the middle of the Games?

Yes, it's an important issue and he should be praised for tackling it. 19.46% (2,238 votes)


No, he should focus on sport, not social engineering. 58.39% (6,716 votes)


Good question, bad timing; he should have waited until after the Games to criticise the squad. 22.15% (2,547 votes)



Total Votes: 11,501



He's not criticising the squad, he's criticising the state schooling system.

Although saying that my school was great, we did loads of sports. Jess Ennis went to my school although she's a few years younger.

As for dis-encouraging competition, in football the English FA have only just realised this does not help and have now put in rules to align with other countries - Spain, Holland, Germany etc. where they don't do leagues for kids and yet they seem to excel at football.

crankedup

9,240 posts

112 months

[news] 
Friday 3rd August 2012 quote quote all
Twincam16 said:
crankedup said:
XCP said:
English Athletics charging ridiculous amounts to enter competitions does not help. If my son had entered the SW champs this year, I would have seen no change out of £100. And that was for the privilege of representing his county. And then they wonder why no-one turns up.
Try motorcycle racing, to keep a superbike on the grid is around 3k for the weekends racing. Add a crash and its even more eye watering, both financially and riders health!
And yet ironically it seems to me most British motorcycle racers seem to come from working-class, comprehensive-school backgrounds. Most bike racers seem to have a family background in mechanics and rode bikes round fields from a very young age.

I think there are a number of problems with state school sport:

-Playing fields being sold off. Also, computers being given far too much prominence within the school leading to sports halls being converted into computer suites. The private sector doesn't seem to feel the need to offload its assets like that. I was lucky enough to go to a state school with facilities for just about every sport that didn't involve a horse or water, but many schools these days are just down to some tennis courts, a football pitch and one multi-use hall.

-A left-wing teaching union/Labour government hatred of competition that might produce winners and losers.

-A curriculum that's more bothered about getting kids to meet targets to satisfactory levels rather than developing their sports. Most state schools teach fixed sports on cycles, so you effectively just have 'taster sessions' of every sport on repeat. If someone shows promise, they might be encouraged to join an after-school team, but in the private sector if someone shows promise they are coached as part of the PE lesson itself. As a result, talent can be spotted early on and nurtured.

As ever, the state sector is completely hamstrung by the people who run it, who are so blinkeredly left-wing they can't see how their obssession with a narrow set of political ideas coupled with a disastrous target-led culture is ruining the lives of the kids sent through it.

I've said it before, but one of Blair's biggest crimes was against his own country. He inherited an education system that worked perfectly well and proceeded to ruin it. Having trained as a teacher, worked in several schools and decided to throw in the towel having had enough of the system's fatal flaws, I've seem the wreckage, even at the school that I myself attended. And I know full well that if I went through that school now I'd have come out the other side a lot thicker, a lot fatter and with the attention span of a gnat. The values it used to be run on during the Major era, of rigour and taking pride in your work, were positively demonised under Labour.

There are good kids in those schools, but they're marching into the battleground that is the real world with one hand tied behind their backs, up against kids from public schools taught as individuals rather than a statistic to make the local council look good.

There's a grain of a good idea in the new academies. However, the power of the teaching unions needs serious curtailing (lobbying over pay and conditions is fair enough, but they're exerting a hard-left influence over the way kids are educated and have been doing for decades. If you're a teacher and you don't sign up to the union line on politics you're left high and dry), the inspection regime needs reorganising to focus on teaching quality rather than points-scoring, and the league tables IMO need to be reduced to once every four years, with a rolling average taken.

And the exam boards. One for each subject. Annual independent review as to what gets you an A*/A/B/C etc with no fiddling or quibbling. No grades to exist below C- - if you don't get a C-, you fail. It's a total farce that people can say they have 'x-number of GCSEs' when they can 'pass' with something as low as a G.
If I could just take up your comment regards working class seems to be where lots of riders have backgrounds. I would agree with that, over all the years spent in the race paddocks here and abroad (my lad races)I have heard little evidence of upper class lads racing. Even sponsors seem to have working backgrounds and made good, but the bike racing fraternity is very close knit. On the BSB grid most riders also have a full time job helping to pay for the racing, so when you see a bike go down and the rider get up I always think jeez another 3k in crash damage. Problem is now that even the lads at top level are struggling to find a sponsored ride, many pay to ride even up to MOTO 2 level! That is shocking IMO, club racers hope to make it into the top level of course, but when the budget for a seasons racing has to be met then its daunting to say the least.

voyds9

4,067 posts

152 months

[news] 
Friday 3rd August 2012 quote quote all
eccles said:
10 Pence Short said:
eccles said:
I grew up in South Wales in the 70's, football didn't really appear on our radar at all.
That's because electricity, never mind radar, hadn't even hit Wales by the 70s.
That's original, never heard that before.
That's 'cos you've only just got the internet.

B Huey

4,881 posts

68 months

[news] 
Friday 3rd August 2012 quote quote all
V8mate said:
Nah. Everyone knows that poor people are lazy and feckless.
Stupid too.

davepoth

19,915 posts

68 months

[news] 
Friday 3rd August 2012 quote quote all
The other thing we need to bear in mind is that the Olympics were from the outset an event for rich Europeans. There's still a skewing towards "upper class" sports, such as Three Day Eventing, Shooting, Fencing, Tennis (arguably), and archery, which is always going to mean that someone coming from a family where that sport is practiced is always going to have a bit of a head start.

It stands to reason that rich parents are always going to be able to give their children an advantage in sport anyway - they can pay for one to one coaching, the best equipment, and travel to international events.

Twincam16

27,230 posts

127 months

[news] 
Friday 3rd August 2012 quote quote all
davepoth said:
It stands to reason that rich parents are always going to be able to give their children an advantage in sport anyway - they can pay for one to one coaching, the best equipment, and travel to international events.
So would it not make sense to both maximise our nation's chances of success and make the population much healthier (and thus more economically and socially beneficial) to extend the same advantages towards kids who show the same levels of promise, but can't afford to succeed on their own?

Surely this is where the notion of state support really comes into its own?

Also, as an interesting contrast to Hoy, Bradley Wiggins is about as working-class as it's possible to be, and he started out by going down to his local, scruffy outdoor velodrome and riding round setting fast laps on a second-hand racing bike bought from the local exchange and mart.

Background is no indication of talent - or that talent being worth officially supporting - so why do we have a state sector that leaves so many potential Bradley Wigginses to fail in obscurity? Especially if we can get to fourth in the medals table behind only America, China and South Korea?

I find it rather sad that so many 'promising young footballers' end up just that. The focus is so narrow. I bet a lot of generally unacademic kids could be persuaded to pour their efforts into sports other than football and achieve success far more readily and in excess of the rather pathetic doomed Premiership dream so many of them have. There are only twenty Premiership football clubs, each club only has a limited number of players and most of them are foreigners. Even if you're quite good at football, your chances of being a Premiership footballer are extremely slim.

However, if that effort and natural physical ability found in so many unacademic working-class kids could be channelled into other sports, they could achieve sporting prowess and the requisite career far more easily. There's the discipline aspect too - look at the massively positive influence boxing gyms have on so many run-down areas. A good boxing gym can actually cut crime as well as produce champions. Same goes for martial-arts clubs.

Sport and the benefits of sport are massively undervalued in this country, despite our 'superfan' reputation especially regarding football and cricket. We're very good as it is, but the reality is that if we addressed the problems of state-sector sport we could be even better.

Wouldn't necessarily take more money either, just a better use of existing funds and much less bureaucracy.

eccles

7,703 posts

91 months

[news] 
Friday 3rd August 2012 quote quote all
voyds9 said:
eccles said:
10 Pence Short said:
eccles said:
I grew up in South Wales in the 70's, football didn't really appear on our radar at all.
That's because electricity, never mind radar, hadn't even hit Wales by the 70s.
That's original, never heard that before.
That's 'cos you've only just got the internet.
That's the english for you. tongue out

davepoth

19,915 posts

68 months

[news] 
Friday 3rd August 2012 quote quote all
Twincam16 said:
So would it not make sense to both maximise our nation's chances of success and make the population much healthier (and thus more economically and socially beneficial) to extend the same advantages towards kids who show the same levels of promise, but can't afford to succeed on their own?

Surely this is where the notion of state support really comes into its own?
But how do you do that? Even if we spend a lot of money on talent scouting through the schools, rich people are still going to be able to spend more money on their own one or two children than the state can on millions of children.

Twincam16 said:
Also, as an interesting contrast to Hoy, Bradley Wiggins is about as working-class as it's possible to be, and he started out by going down to his local, scruffy outdoor velodrome and riding round setting fast laps on a second-hand racing bike bought from the local exchange and mart.

Background is no indication of talent - or that talent being worth officially supporting - so why do we have a state sector that leaves so many potential Bradley Wigginses to fail in obscurity? Especially if we can get to fourth in the medals table behind only America, China and South Korea?

I find it rather sad that so many 'promising young footballers' end up just that. The focus is so narrow. I bet a lot of generally unacademic kids could be persuaded to pour their efforts into sports other than football and achieve success far more readily and in excess of the rather pathetic doomed Premiership dream so many of them have. There are only twenty Premiership football clubs, each club only has a limited number of players and most of them are foreigners. Even if you're quite good at football, your chances of being a Premiership footballer are extremely slim.
Most "promising young footballers" have most of the attributes of a lot of professional footballers - a fascination with celebrity culture, a propensity to spit, and a criminal record for assault - but not the footballing talent. It's just a newspaper cliche.

Twincam16 said:
However, if that effort and natural physical ability found in so many unacademic working-class kids could be channelled into other sports, they could achieve sporting prowess and the requisite career far more easily. There's the discipline aspect too - look at the massively positive influence boxing gyms have on so many run-down areas. A good boxing gym can actually cut crime as well as produce champions. Same goes for martial-arts clubs.

Sport and the benefits of sport are massively undervalued in this country, despite our 'superfan' reputation especially regarding football and cricket. We're very good as it is, but the reality is that if we addressed the problems of state-sector sport we could be even better.

Wouldn't necessarily take more money either, just a better use of existing funds and much less bureaucracy.
In my opinion the problem is actually state sector sport. The whole point is that we have to pick winners and losers; that's how sport works. If we spent the money checking to see if every individual was any good there would be no money left to develop them. So what we do is to concentrate on the ones with drive - the ones who like Wiggins wanted it more than anything else - and figure out from them who has the talent, rather than doing it the other way round. I think it's the best way IMO.


Derek Smith

16,052 posts

117 months

[news] 
Friday 3rd August 2012 quote quote all
Chrisw666 said:
There's also the issue that funding for sports in the UK is directed at clubs, i.e. sailing club, rowing club, cycling club etc.

With the notable exceptions of Boxing and Football very few of these activities are pitched at an accessible level for people who haven't got the right social connections or young people who don't belong to motivated parents. Sometimes the issue restricting access isn't money but something more intangible that even I struggle to fully understand despite seeing it on a regular basis.

We've introduced many children to sports that are events at the Olympic games, but of those with a talent many of them don't follow it up as their parents can't be bothered to (or can't afford to) take them for further coaching or want to push them into sports they see as cheap and easy to access.

There has always been (and probably always will be) a class divide in sports between working and middle class people. Boxers and Footballers often come from working class backgrounds, darts players and snooker players probably do too, but Rugby players, Athletes, Swimmers, Cyclists etc are from Middle or higher class backgrounds.
Not so rugby, at least at grass roots level. It has the image of a posh people's sport but it is well on the way to moving away from that. Independent schools still get pick of the litter and the RFU is riddled with bias towards privilidge but talent will out.

One rugby club I know of was very posh when I first went and we felt a little out of it - me being common like. Some years later I returned with my younger son and all they were after were players who could play. It's improved the sport from a playing point of view no end. There's no way any club from 20 years ago could play at the same level as nowadays.

Down my way there's a college that nicks kids who show talent and then prides itself, at least in adverts and when suggesting that it is open to all, with how generous they are to poor people. Yet when the county organised a tour of OZ and NZ all the poor people had to raise funds for months beforehand and there was a strict ability-level cut off yet when kids from posh schools came along a few weeks before the day, their kids were dumped on us.

We were obliged to generate a certain amount of sponsorship for each player, their kids had to step down out of mums' 4x4s.

That's the way to make a good team spirit.

Crowds have become more rowdy and some of the accepted norms of conduct have suffered - one team brought their own booze to one match! - but what has happened is that rugby has improved no end. There is still some way to go but when you look at the youngsters coming along you have to say that rugby will soon be a sport of the people.

If it carries on the way it is going (and the mob at the RFU are either deposed or ignored) there is nothing stopping England dominating the world in a few years. Rugby has generally been a working class sport in Wales and they've often not disgraced themselves despite a population lower than our club membership.

In my son's last level 4 team the poshest person we had playing for us was a schoolteacher. Now at Brighton, my lad's considered quite posh.

Rude-boy

15,543 posts

102 months

[news] 
Friday 3rd August 2012 quote quote all
^^^^

As the saying goes the fastest, greatest racing driver in the World has likely never driven a car.

Derek Smith

16,052 posts

117 months

[news] 
Friday 3rd August 2012 quote quote all
On a more general topic, state schools have been selling of their sports grounds for years, 'encouraged' to do so by the state. My lad's school had to fight hard to keep half an acre for all sports. It wasn't until VIth form that he really had a chance to shine athetically. At the age of 13 he beat the school's discus record comfortably, that's any age. He trounced the triple jump as well. But with no teachers having any knowledge of field events he had no real chance of developing his innate abilities.

Jasandjules

45,416 posts

98 months

[news] 
Friday 3rd August 2012 quote quote all
Chrisw666 said:
I did read a research paper years ago about mountaineers and why they came from wealthy backgrounds and the conclusions included the fact that wealthy people are more driven to succeed and therefore are more likely to push themselves physically to excel at something even if there is no financial reward.
Might I suggest there was a flaw somewhere in your research and/or a bias which came through to draw somewhat erroneous conclusions..

Derek Smith

16,052 posts

117 months

[news] 
Friday 3rd August 2012 quote quote all
Jasandjules said:
Chrisw666 said:
I did read a research paper years ago about mountaineers and why they came from wealthy backgrounds and the conclusions included the fact that wealthy people are more driven to succeed and therefore are more likely to push themselves physically to excel at something even if there is no financial reward.
Might I suggest there was a flaw somewhere in your research and/or a bias which came through to draw somewhat erroneous conclusions..
Brave of you to comment on that. I thought of doing so but expected some soert of whoosh! parrot.

I thought part of the reason might be that there are few mountains in the east end of London, but then what do I know. I tell you waht I do know is the price of mountaineering gear. I had a go at rockclimbing when I was around 35, loved it and decided I might have a go. A visit to Blacks soon put that idea out of my mind.

I wonder if Joe Tasker had ever featured in this paper. A dustman who was the climber of his generation.

XCP

10,496 posts

97 months

[news] 
Friday 3rd August 2012 quote quote all
Pothole said:
id no-one turn up then?
A slight exaggeration for which I apologise.
3 men in my sons event. From 7 counties.

ellroy

2,107 posts

94 months

[news] 
Friday 3rd August 2012 quote quote all
I'd like to say I find it disgraceful that at least 70% of premier league footballers are from comprehensives.

More space in the top league for Tarquin, I say.
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