Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 2

[s2art]

ViperPict said:

I am not a socialist so it would not be a big deal really.

I think it grinds your gears tho that the extreme expression of right wing politics was the Nazi party!

There are a few examples of an extreme right wing state, Victorian Britain being a good example, similarly the USA up to the 30's. Capitalism was king. The Nazis were not capitalists, their policies included the state controlling the means of production and controls on prices and income. Solidly socialist.

[WhereamI]

ViperPict said:

Interesting 'thought experiment'...

http://www.scotsman.com/the-scotsman/politics/scot...

Not really, it depends on what situation the independent Scotland was in.

Right now, according to the ONS (Office for National Statistics) Scotland's gross value added per head is below that of England but not by a significant margin, if that were the case in an independent Scotland then joining the Union would arguably have little benefit. But the issue remains the same, whether Scotland on it's own can maintain and grow it's economy or whether it will be significantly weaker on it's own. If that does prove to be the case then an independent Scotland may well want to be part of the Union.

[TheHeretic]

One thing that still hasn't been answered in any way is the civil service workforce, and the simple fact that that level of workforce cannot be sustained. What will be done?

[ViperPict]

s2art said:

ViperPict said:

I am not a socialist so it would not be a big deal really.

I think it grinds your gears tho that the extreme expression of right wing politics was the Nazi party!

There are a few examples of an extreme right wing state, Victorian Britain being a good example, similarly the USA up to the 30's. Capitalism was king. The Nazis were not capitalists, their policies included the state controlling the means of production and controls on prices and income. Solidly socialist.

Despite the vast majority of leading 20th century historians defining them right wing.

Plus the fact that the Nazi's actively and explicitly persecuted socialists (the first to go to the concentration camps).

And right wing does not equal capitalism!!!

Right wing is the acceptance of a 'ranking' of society. The Nazis being the extreme example where they ranked according to race and religion.

[WhereamI]

ViperPict said:

Despite the vast majority of leading 20th century historians defining them right wing.

Plus the fact that the Nazi's actively and explicitly persecuted socialists (the first to go to the concentration camps).

And right wing does not equal capitalism!!!

Right wing is the acceptance of a 'ranking' of society. The Nazis being the extreme example where they ranked according to race and religion.

I still don't get why this is relevant, regardless of whether Nazis were to the right or the left anyone who links the Conservatives or Labour to Nazis or Communists is clearly howling at the moon.

[ViperPict]

WhereamI said:

ViperPict said:

Despite the vast majority of leading 20th century historians defining them right wing.

Plus the fact that the Nazi's actively and explicitly persecuted socialists (the first to go to the concentration camps).

And right wing does not equal capitalism!!!

Right wing is the acceptance of a 'ranking' of society. The Nazis being the extreme example where they ranked according to race and religion.

I still don't get why this is relevant, regardless of whether Nazis were to the right or the left anyone who links the Conservatives or Labour to Nazis or Communists is clearly howling at the moon.

It was the fact that someone had suggested they would like a farther right government. Never a nice thought looking at history...

[davepoth]

ViperPict said:

It was the fact that someone had suggested they would like a farther right government. Never a nice thought looking at history...

Because the "Century of Socialism" Brought us:

The Red Terror
WW2
The Cold War
The Korean War
The Vietnam War
The Long March
The Great Leap Forwards
The Killing Fields of Cambodia

And myriad other minor "purges" that would take far too long to list. Definitely the way forward.

[ViperPict]

davepoth said:

ViperPict said:

It was the fact that someone had suggested they would like a farther right government. Never a nice thought looking at history...

Because the "Century of Socialism" Brought us:

The Red Terror
WW2
The Cold War
The Korean War
The Vietnam War
The Long March
The Great Leap Forwards
The Killing Fields of Cambodia

And myriad other minor "purges" that would take far too long to list. Definitely the way forward.

I have never been an advocate of the extreme left or the extreme right. I was just reacting to someone who had suggested that a further right party than the Tories (there are not many to choose from) was the way forward for the UK.

But you are a very deluded if you think it is SOLELY left wing politics than have been responsible for the 20th and 21st century's attrocities (which you seem to be implying)...

[AstonZagato]

ViperPict said:

Interesting 'thought experiment'...

http://www.scotsman.com/the-scotsman/politics/scot...

But those who advocate an independent Scotland seem to want to join the European Union.

[davepoth]

ViperPict said:

I have never been an advocate of the extreme left or the extreme right. I was just reacting to someone who had suggested that a further right party than the Tories (there are not many to choose from) was the way forward for the UK.

But you are a very deluded if you think it is SOLELY left wing politics than have been responsible for the 20th and 21st century's attrocities (which you seem to be implying)...

Quite the opposite - it seems you were suggesting that the politics of the right were solely to blame.

[ViperPict]

davepoth said:

ViperPict said:

I have never been an advocate of the extreme left or the extreme right. I was just reacting to someone who had suggested that a further right party than the Tories (there are not many to choose from) was the way forward for the UK.

But you are a very deluded if you think it is SOLELY left wing politics than have been responsible for the 20th and 21st century's attrocities (which you seem to be implying)...

Quite the opposite - it seems you were suggesting that the politics of the right were solely to blame.

In what post did I say that anything of the sort??!! All I was ever arguing is that Nazis were on the right of centre somewhat!! You are the one stating that the ails of the world since time immemorial was down to socialism!

If you can't win the argument, change the argument!

[TheHeretic]

Nazi's... Right of centre... Hmmmm.

[AstonZagato]

ViperPict said:

davepoth said:

ViperPict said:

I have never been an advocate of the extreme left or the extreme right. I was just reacting to someone who had suggested that a further right party than the Tories (there are not many to choose from) was the way forward for the UK.

But you are a very deluded if you think it is SOLELY left wing politics than have been responsible for the 20th and 21st century's attrocities (which you seem to be implying)...

Quite the opposite - it seems you were suggesting that the politics of the right were solely to blame.

In what post did I say that anything of the sort??!! All I was ever arguing is that Nazis were on the right of centre somewhat!! You are the one stating that the ails of the world since time immemorial was down to socialism!

If you can't win the argument, change the argument!

What you did was Godwin's. Effectively, you were trying to imply that anyone wishing a government more right wing than the Conservatives was looking for a bunch of Nazis.

[ViperPict]

AstonZagato said:

ViperPict said:

davepoth said:

ViperPict said:

I have never been an advocate of the extreme left or the extreme right. I was just reacting to someone who had suggested that a further right party than the Tories (there are not many to choose from) was the way forward for the UK.

But you are a very deluded if you think it is SOLELY left wing politics than have been responsible for the 20th and 21st century's attrocities (which you seem to be implying)...

Quite the opposite - it seems you were suggesting that the politics of the right were solely to blame.

In what post did I say that anything of the sort??!! All I was ever arguing is that Nazis were on the right of centre somewhat!! You are the one stating that the ails of the world since time immemorial was down to socialism!

If you can't win the argument, change the argument!

What you did was Godwin's. Effectively, you were trying to imply that anyone wishing a government more right wing than the Conservatives was looking for a bunch of Nazis.

I merely went to the extreme of the argument.

What are the choices for further right political parties in the UK than the Tories?

[TheHeretic]

ViperPict said:

I merely went to the extreme of the argument.

What are the choices for further right political parties in the UK than the Tories?

UKIP?

[davepoth]

ViperPict said:

I merely went to the extreme of the argument.

What are the choices for further right political parties in the UK than the Tories?

There are some 420 registered parties in the UK. Here's one I picked at random.

http://www.thegrumpyoldmenpoliticalparty.org.uk/

[AstonZagato]

ViperPict said:

I merely went to the extreme of the argument.

Which is Godwin's. QED.

[Edinburger]

Turn your back on this thread for a day or two, and when you return it's mayhem on another topic. Same old playground bullies having a fag by the bikesheds and still picking on VP though...

I can't beleive that some of the UK's finest economic minds (allegedly) don't know the extremes of the political spectrum: that's communism to the extreme left and fascism to the extreme right. That's universally agreed - I thought? It isn't a straight line though, it's more of a horeshoe shape because although there are major differences in some policies, there are similarities in others.

Capitalism, fascism, communism, socialism and totalitarianism are different types of political ideologies. That drills down further to Nazism, Stalinism, etc., which each have their own different policies, features and interpretations.

In many ways, communist and fascist movements have opposing ideologies but both ended up being repressive political systems based on the control of a single leader. While communism is based around a theory of economic equality, fascism is based around the glory of the state and strength often displayed through violence and conquest.

Looking at specific policies, fascism believes in the superiority of a person, race or class and is similar to totalitarianism; but communism differs from these two ideologies as it propagates a classless and stateless society.

I'm pretty sure this topic could be debated here for a long time, but at the end of the day it's agreed that communism is extreme left and fascism is extreme right.

Now, what does this have to do with Scottish independence exactly?

[TheHeretic]

Picking on VP?

Good one.

[Edinburger]

TheHeretic said:

One thing that still hasn't been answered in any way is the civil service workforce, and the simple fact that that level of workforce cannot be sustained. What will be done?

True, and also does anyone know the split of civil service posts?

By that I mean which posts would be retained in an independent Scotland which ones would need to be brought here from rUK? Similarly, I'd imagine there are posts in Scotland which would need to recreated in rUK?

But I'm no expert on the structure of the civil service.