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thinfourth2
23,523 posts
73 months
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mikele pirelli said: However, if Jock is now sitting on the " bru " he's paying nothing, in direct taxation and expecting the State to provide the heating boiler, as his house was re-po'd and he now lives in s  tville, Central Scotland. The local heating engineer makes nada, as the council supplied the boiler, so the joiner doesn't get any work and he can't afford to have the van fixed .... ergo, the man at the garage goes bust . Yes but the local heating engineer is probably polish or he is someone who can be arsed to get up in the morning and go to work Its not a lack of jobs its a lack of motivation
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ViperPict
8,415 posts
106 months
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thinfourth2 said: mikele pirelli said: However, if Jock is now sitting on the " bru " he's paying nothing, in direct taxation and expecting the State to provide the heating boiler, as his house was re-po'd and he now lives in s tville, Central Scotland. The local heating engineer makes nada, as the council supplied the boiler, so the joiner doesn't get any work and he can't afford to have the van fixed .... ergo, the man at the garage goes bust . Yes but the local heating engineer is probably polish or he is someone who can be arsed to get up in the morning and go to work Its not a lack of jobs its a lack of motivation Were different when I were a lad etc etc... 
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thinfourth2
23,523 posts
73 months
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ViperPict said: thinfourth2 said: mikele pirelli said: However, if Jock is now sitting on the " bru " he's paying nothing, in direct taxation and expecting the State to provide the heating boiler, as his house was re-po'd and he now lives in s tville, Central Scotland. The local heating engineer makes nada, as the council supplied the boiler, so the joiner doesn't get any work and he can't afford to have the van fixed .... ergo, the man at the garage goes bust . Yes but the local heating engineer is probably polish or he is someone who can be arsed to get up in the morning and go to work Its not a lack of jobs its a lack of motivation Were different when I were a lad etc etc... So why is there so many poles here? And why will an independant scotland solve the problem of so many in scotland sucking off the state?
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davepoth
19,878 posts
68 months
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mikele pirelli said: Yes, I am saying shop work doesn't justify training someone
at Uni for four years to perform a function that a generation
ago was carried out by school leavers who left with nothing
more than the three R'S ... without demeaning anyone.
Are you seriously suggesting THAT is a good use of taxpayers
money, never mind the waste of talent that it entails ? That's why the subsidy has been eliminated in England - there's no point in the government paying to educate people for jobs that aren't there.
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mcdjl
1,602 posts
64 months
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mikele pirelli said: mcdjl said: mikele pirelli said: You can't have it both ways : on the one hand you've advocated that
Thatcher's economic policy of the 1980's was valid and the demise of
our industrial base was both necessary and therefore by definition inevitable.
Consequently, as a result we now have an overpopulated region without
sufficient QUALITY employment to go around ... graduates on tills
in Lidl and Aldi, isn't a solution imho. The decline of our industrial capacity was largely as a result of someone else being able to do it cheaper, ie they paid their workforce less, or had less of a workforce to pay to achieve the same result. This nothing to do with Thatcher. It has more to do with people demanding more pay until the point where it becomes cheaper to ship something half way round the world than make it at home. That aside why isn't a graduate working on the till in a shop a solution? If thats the only job they can find they either went for the wrong degree or are looking in the wrong area. If you say that the shop job doesnt pay enough i counter that by saying that the dole pays too much then. I know of a PhD graduate who took on a McDonalds job behind the tills when she finished as she couldn't find a job in her area. Several years on shes still there (and actually enjoys the time she spends on the tills) but also has much greater responsibility. Theres no reason to knock these jobs as being lowly: without someone doing them no one else could buy stuff there. Yes, I am saying shop work doesn't justify training someone at Uni for four years to perform a function that a generation ago was carried out by school leavers who left with nothing more than the three R'S ... without demeaning anyone. Are you seriously suggesting THAT is a good use of taxpayers money, never mind the waste of talent that it entails ? I was responding to another posters suggestion that it could be an option to retract benefits in totality. My suspicion is unless anarchy in the streets is desirable, then we seek a more beneficial way forward.( Last year down South, eg ) However, I think You've kind of made my point by your friends experience ... if we are going to train people to an advanced level, then it would be good to be able to offer them something : A/ pertinent B/ not totally devoid of intellectual stimulation. and C/ and yes, financially satisfying work wouldn't go amiss either. The decline of our manufacturing is as much politically driven, as economic I'm afraid. I worked in one of the industries that were the SUCCESSOR to our trad heavy industries. Multinationals, no longer with us, who will up sticks and leave ( with large amounts of UK taxpayers money ) when a better deal is offered elsewhere ... Thatcher, was mentioned in the context of the time, only. Perhaps we need to look at the degrees people are doing then. In which case is offering free university education to all a good idea? As I said : If thats the only job they can find they either went for the wrong degree or are looking in the wrong area. The person in my example was constrained by area. They made the best of it. How can we offer them something more appropriate? We need to create an atmosphere in which those multinationals turn up. This is one which costs them less, either because they can pay less, or they get taxed less. I think the only political driver in the destruction of our manufacturing has been as a result of the opposite of these two points.
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ViperPict
8,415 posts
106 months
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thinfourth2 said: ViperPict said: thinfourth2 said: mikele pirelli said: However, if Jock is now sitting on the " bru " he's paying nothing, in direct taxation and expecting the State to provide the heating boiler, as his house was re-po'd and he now lives in s tville, Central Scotland. The local heating engineer makes nada, as the council supplied the boiler, so the joiner doesn't get any work and he can't afford to have the van fixed .... ergo, the man at the garage goes bust . Yes but the local heating engineer is probably polish or he is someone who can be arsed to get up in the morning and go to work Its not a lack of jobs its a lack of motivation Were different when I were a lad etc etc... So why is there so many poles here? And why will an independant scotland solve the problem of so many in scotland sucking off the state? To quote Alan Partridge, "This country!"
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thinfourth2
23,523 posts
73 months
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ViperPict said: To quote Alan Partridge, "This country!" Keep dancing
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ViperPict
8,415 posts
106 months
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thinfourth2 said: ViperPict said: To quote Alan Partridge, "This country!" Keep dancing Are you even too thick to write your own posts now? 
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thinfourth2
23,523 posts
73 months
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ViperPict said: thinfourth2 said: ViperPict said: To quote Alan Partridge, "This country!" Keep dancing Are you even too thick to write your own posts now? Another question body swerved Keep dancing
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mcdjl
1,602 posts
64 months
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ViperPict said: thinfourth2 said: ViperPict said: To quote Alan Partridge, "This country!" Keep dancing Are you even too thick to write your own posts now? Technically you didn't write yours, Alan Partridge did.
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thinfourth2
23,523 posts
73 months
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mikele pirelli said:
Would YOU work for what these Polish people are earning ?
I did work on exactly the same wage as the poles
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WhereamI
6,087 posts
86 months
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mikele pirelli said:
Would YOU work for what these Polish people are earning ?
But that's the problem, you have to be competitive, if someone else is willing to work for less then ( all other things being equal ) they will get the work. This is the problem, a Scotland that is willing to compete could be successful. But a Scotland full of people who think hard work and low pay is beneath them has a problem. (the same is true, of course, of the UK)
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glazbagun
4,153 posts
66 months
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thinfourth2 said: mikele pirelli said: So, what do you propose as an alternative ? Like you, I see no
apparent value in independence. Like you, I've not much regard for
AS.
Where we seem to diverge is this benefits issue. We have a larg(ish )
population sitting around with no work. Tell the poles there is no work As they aren't struggling to find work Maybe not at the menial level, but I know of few Poles in Scotland who have managed to find a "proper" post-grad job. Agree with the general work ethic stereotype though, they can find unskilled work.
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ViperPict
8,415 posts
106 months
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mcdjl said: ViperPict said: thinfourth2 said: ViperPict said: To quote Alan Partridge, "This country!" Keep dancing Are you even too thick to write your own posts now? Technically you didn't write yours, Alan Partridge did. Sorry to be pedantic but it was actually Steve Coogan. 
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ViperPict
8,415 posts
106 months
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glazbagun said: thinfourth2 said: mikele pirelli said: So, what do you propose as an alternative ? Like you, I see no
apparent value in independence. Like you, I've not much regard for
AS.
Where we seem to diverge is this benefits issue. We have a larg(ish )
population sitting around with no work. Tell the poles there is no work As they aren't struggling to find work Maybe not at the menial level, but I know of few Poles in Scotland who have managed to find a "proper" post-grad job. Agree with the general work ethic stereotype though, they can find unskilled work. I had a Polish person working for me doing some technical stuff. She was not bad. Talked too much though. Earache.
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isoimp
249 posts
47 months
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ViperPict said: glazbagun said: thinfourth2 said: mikele pirelli said: So, what do you propose as an alternative ? Like you, I see no
apparent value in independence. Like you, I've not much regard for
AS.
Where we seem to diverge is this benefits issue. We have a larg(ish )
population sitting around with no work. Tell the poles there is no work As they aren't struggling to find work Maybe not at the menial level, but I know of few Poles in Scotland who have managed to find a "proper" post-grad job. Agree with the general work ethic stereotype though, they can find unskilled work. I had a Polish person working for me doing some technical stuff. She was not bad. Talked too much though. Earache. Reading your comment: What a narrow minded idiot you are and typical of the a holes that support turnip heid
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Edinburger
2,327 posts
37 months
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isoimp said: ViperPict said: glazbagun said: thinfourth2 said: mikele pirelli said: So, what do you propose as an alternative ? Like you, I see no
apparent value in independence. Like you, I've not much regard for
AS.
Where we seem to diverge is this benefits issue. We have a larg(ish )
population sitting around with no work. Tell the poles there is no work As they aren't struggling to find work Maybe not at the menial level, but I know of few Poles in Scotland who have managed to find a "proper" post-grad job. Agree with the general work ethic stereotype though, they can find unskilled work. I had a Polish person working for me doing some technical stuff. She was not bad. Talked too much though. Earache. Reading your comment: What a narrow minded idiot you are and typical of the a holes that support turnip heid isoimp - Is that a serious post? Have you read some of the guff posted over the past few days on those topics?
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doogz
18,667 posts
56 months
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mikele pirelli said: However, if Jock is now sitting on the " bru " he's paying nothing, in direct taxation and expecting the State to provide the heating boiler, as his house was re-po'd and he now lives in s tville, Central Scotland. The local heating engineer makes nada, as the council supplied the boiler, so the joiner doesn't get any work and he can't afford to have the van fixed .... ergo, the man at the garage goes bust . I'm no economist, but it works something like this ^ ?You don't say! My mate is a 'heating engineer', or gas fitter, whatever you want to call it. he runs his own little company, and makes a killing off council jobs.
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doogz
18,667 posts
56 months
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mikele pirelli said: Lucky him......he's the one with the contract ...
and the rest ?
Good for you ... you found something to snipe at !
Adios ........ It wasn't a snipe, I was pointing out the flaw in your argument, that you seem to be basing your case on. Regardless of who pays said gas fitter, he still gets paid, and the imaginary joiner in your daft example would also get paid. Really not sure what your point, or problem for that matter, is?
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ViperPict
8,415 posts
106 months
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isoimp said: ViperPict said: glazbagun said: thinfourth2 said: mikele pirelli said: So, what do you propose as an alternative ? Like you, I see no
apparent value in independence. Like you, I've not much regard for
AS.
Where we seem to diverge is this benefits issue. We have a larg(ish )
population sitting around with no work. Tell the poles there is no work As they aren't struggling to find work Maybe not at the menial level, but I know of few Poles in Scotland who have managed to find a "proper" post-grad job. Agree with the general work ethic stereotype though, they can find unskilled work. I had a Polish person working for me doing some technical stuff. She was not bad. Talked too much though. Earache. Reading your comment: What a narrow minded idiot you are and typical of the a holes that support turnip heid How is that narrow-minded?! It was a statement of fact re. one specific person. I'll introduce her to you and you'd agree, I assure you. It was not a general statement re. all Polish people. The point was that she did not fit the previously assumed stereotype of working on a till etc but had a Uni education and was doing technical work.
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