Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 2

Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 2

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ViperPict

10,087 posts

236 months

Monday 15th October 2012
quotequote all
simoid said:
ViperPict said:
I think the wording of the question will not fool anyone into voting against their views.
It's not about fooling, it's about leading.

It's easier in the mind to 'agree' to certain questions.

We can probably drop the question of 'the question' for now, seeing as the Electoral Commission will do testing and such things to remove bias.

Although I think the Electoral Commission may be an anti-independence body... wink
I recall the proposed question had already been reviewed and regarded as not leading by some leading political academic a while back...

The danger for Westminster (as they discovered early doors) is that being seen to bully the SG into taking on their requirements for the referendum will result in a negative reaction from the electorate...

Edited by ViperPict on Monday 15th October 14:14

simoid

19,772 posts

157 months

Monday 15th October 2012
quotequote all
ViperPict said:
I recall the proposed question had already been reviewed and regarded as not leading by some leading political academic a while back...
Came up in conversation with a psychology graduate friend of mine, who said it was basically a "textbook example" of a leading question.

simoid

19,772 posts

157 months

Monday 15th October 2012
quotequote all
ViperPict said:
The danger for Westminster (as they discovered early doors) is that being seen to bully the SG into taking on their requirements for the referendum will result in a negative reaction from the electorate...
Blasted politics, eh.

ViperPict

10,087 posts

236 months

Monday 15th October 2012
quotequote all
simoid said:
ViperPict said:
I recall the proposed question had already been reviewed and regarded as not leading by some leading political academic a while back...
Came up in conversation with a psychology graduate friend of mine, who said it was basically a "textbook example" of a leading question.
We'll see what the Electoral Commission think. Although I think the wording of the question will have little bearing on the outcome of the referendum...

simoid

19,772 posts

157 months

Monday 15th October 2012
quotequote all
ViperPict said:
simoid said:
ViperPict said:
I recall the proposed question had already been reviewed and regarded as not leading by some leading political academic a while back...
Came up in conversation with a psychology graduate friend of mine, who said it was basically a "textbook example" of a leading question.
We'll see what the Electoral Commission think. Although I think the wording of the question will have little bearing on the outcome of the referendum...
The fact that it is possible for a psychology graduate to hold that opinion reduces the validity of the vote and any result, and we don't want that.

ViperPict

10,087 posts

236 months

Monday 15th October 2012
quotequote all
simoid said:
ViperPict said:
simoid said:
ViperPict said:
I recall the proposed question had already been reviewed and regarded as not leading by some leading political academic a while back...
Came up in conversation with a psychology graduate friend of mine, who said it was basically a "textbook example" of a leading question.
We'll see what the Electoral Commission think. Although I think the wording of the question will have little bearing on the outcome of the referendum...
The fact that it is possible for a psychology graduate to hold that opinion reduces the validity of the vote and any result, and we don't want that.
Although an independent academic did not think it an issue?

ViperPict

10,087 posts

236 months

simoid

19,772 posts

157 months

Monday 15th October 2012
quotequote all
ViperPict said:
simoid said:
ViperPict said:
simoid said:
ViperPict said:
I recall the proposed question had already been reviewed and regarded as not leading by some leading political academic a while back...
Came up in conversation with a psychology graduate friend of mine, who said it was basically a "textbook example" of a leading question.
We'll see what the Electoral Commission think. Although I think the wording of the question will have little bearing on the outcome of the referendum...
The fact that it is possible for a psychology graduate to hold that opinion reduces the validity of the vote and any result, and we don't want that.
Although an independent academic did not think it an issue?
Although an independent academic did not think it an issue, the question has been viewed by some as "leading", and so could give an impression of a referendum that is not as fair as possible.

And, as I said earlier, I do agree that Scotland should be an independent country. However, I think we're better off in the UK so have to vote the opposite of my opinion in the event of that being the referendum question silly

dirty boy

14,688 posts

208 months

Monday 15th October 2012
quotequote all
I can't possibly read all forty pages to catch up....but something that just crossed my mind as I spotted this back in the news...

Am I right in assuming most of an Independent Scotland's income would generated from North Sea oil?

If so, that's a pretty finite resource for a 'new' country to set up on is it not? Could they challenge the remainder of the UK in the financial sector for income generation?

I'm sure a lot of thought has gone into this, but I can't help but 'think' the UK would be better off without Scotland. Which isn't necessarily a good thing.

thinfourth2

32,414 posts

203 months

Monday 15th October 2012
quotequote all
ViperPict said:
Article said:
The deal will also commit both governments to working together constructively in the best interests of the people of Scotland, whatever the outcome of the referendum.
I take it that both houses will all resign then and do something constructive that benefits the UK as a whole like picking up dog pooh and at no point getting involved with anything that actually matters

ViperPict

10,087 posts

236 months

Monday 15th October 2012
quotequote all
dirty boy said:
I can't possibly read all forty pages to catch up....but something that just crossed my mind as I spotted this back in the news...

Am I right in assuming most of an Independent Scotland's income would generated from North Sea oil?

If so, that's a pretty finite resource for a 'new' country to set up on is it not? Could they challenge the remainder of the UK in the financial sector for income generation?

I'm sure a lot of thought has gone into this, but I can't help but 'think' the UK would be better off without Scotland. Which isn't necessarily a good thing.
No, most of Scotland's revenue will not be from oil.

ViperPict

10,087 posts

236 months

Monday 15th October 2012
quotequote all
Guam said:
ViperPict said:
No, most of Scotland's revenue will not be from oil.
It will be from Scotty land the Theme park <launching in 2015>
Surely you're not that ignorant to think that the only industry Scotland has is O&G? Whisky is a £4B pa industry alone...

IainT

10,040 posts

237 months

Monday 15th October 2012
quotequote all
Just been nosing on the ONS website and the % public sector employees (of population) is interesting:

Eng 19.4
Wal 26.2
Sco 23.8

I'd naively assumed that Scotland would be a higher % than that, more in line with Wales. That said it's a higher burden on the wealth-generating portion of the population than England has to support, could it be a big problem for the Scots should they achieve independence?

How many jobs would have to relocate to either side of the border and who would be the net gainers/losers?

baz1985

3,598 posts

244 months

Monday 15th October 2012
quotequote all
I blame Tony Blair. Devolution is/was a terrible idea...it merely creates more entrenched, excessive and expensive bureaucracy, plus Salmond's nutritional costs!

Long live the Barnett formula.

ViperPict

10,087 posts

236 months

Monday 15th October 2012
quotequote all
Guam said:
ViperPict said:
Surely you're not that ignorant to think that the only industry Scotland has is O&G? Whisky is a £4B pa industry alone...
You really have a one sided approach to humour in debate dont you smile
Well, when you make a joke next, let me know... wink

ViperPict

10,087 posts

236 months

Monday 15th October 2012
quotequote all
IainT said:
Just been nosing on the ONS website and the % public sector employees (of population) is interesting:

Eng 19.4
Wal 26.2
Sco 23.8

I'd naively assumed that Scotland would be a higher % than that, more in line with Wales. That said it's a higher burden on the wealth-generating portion of the population than England has to support, could it be a big problem for the Scots should they achieve independence?

How many jobs would have to relocate to either side of the border and who would be the net gainers/losers?
Note that this is % public sector emplyment currently and that the SG are actively 'streamlining' that (e.g., the single police force).

TheHeretic

73,668 posts

254 months

Monday 15th October 2012
quotequote all
ViperPict said:
Note that this is % public sector emplyment currently and that the SG are actively 'streamlining' that (e.g., the single police force).
By streamlining, does that mean making people redundant, or moving them to another civil post?

mcdjl

5,438 posts

194 months

Monday 15th October 2012
quotequote all
ViperPict said:
You know earlier when you didn't read the time line in the link I posted? Thats the same link.
good work!

IainT

10,040 posts

237 months

Monday 15th October 2012
quotequote all
ViperPict said:
Note that this is % public sector emplyment currently and that the SG are actively 'streamlining' that (e.g., the single police force).
Interestingly the figures on the ONS site show that the % in England dropped 1% 2011Q1 to 2012Q2 but only 0.4% in Scotland (and went up in Wales). With the necessity of duplicating portions of Westminster has there been a reasonable estimate of changes. IIRC there is a fair amount of UK PS work up in Scotland that would need to come back to England so I'm not touting an agenda. I'm genuinely interested in how that will play out and, indeed, if the billions to separate the countries are really viable.

Not that I actually think Scotland will vote for separation when it comes to the crunch.

Benny Saltstein

642 posts

212 months

Monday 15th October 2012
quotequote all
I think Salmond would improve his chances if he'd asked for the English to be included in the vote.
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