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Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 2

Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 2

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ViperPict

10,055 posts

144 months

Monday 15th October 2012
quotequote all
simoid said:
ViperPict said:
Well, guess what? It's the SNP's proposed date and question, not Westminster's!
Only once they find a question that is not horrendously leading in nature, and is acceptable to the electoral commission...
It is not horrendously leading in nature! laugh

Do you seriously think that it would trick folk into not voting the way they want to?!

Seriously...

ViperPict

10,055 posts

144 months

Monday 15th October 2012
quotequote all
thinfourth2 said:
ViperPict said:
I agree with most of what you've written. Although I think the vote will be a lot closer than most folk think. Two years to go, during which time the general Scottish populace (not the privelaged few who tend to post on here) will get more and more disenchanted with Dave et al. I think the alternative to the status quo will start to look more and more worth the risk.
And here we are again back to the tory party
But, right or wrong, it is how the populace (Scottish AND English) are thinking...

thinfourth2

32,414 posts

111 months

Monday 15th October 2012
quotequote all
ViperPict said:
It is not horrendously leading in nature! laugh

Do you seriously think that it would trick folk into not voting the way they want to?!

Seriously...
These politicans you claim to speak to all the time


Are they real ones?

thinfourth2

32,414 posts

111 months

Monday 15th October 2012
quotequote all
ViperPict said:
But, right or wrong, it is how the populace (Scottish AND English) are thinking...
Yes lets swap this bunch of useless gits for a new bunch of useless gits as the last time we swapped a bunch of useless gits for another bunch of useless gits we ended up with a bunch of useless gits but this time when we swap a bunch of useless gits for a new bunch of useless gits it will be different.

Repeat until no longer funny

simoid

15,438 posts

65 months

Monday 15th October 2012
quotequote all
ViperPict said:
simoid said:
ViperPict said:
Well, guess what? It's the SNP's proposed date and question, not Westminster's!
Only once they find a question that is not horrendously leading in nature, and is acceptable to the electoral commission...
It is not horrendously leading in nature! laugh

Do you seriously think that it would trick folk into not voting the way they want to?!

Seriously...
Asking "Do you agree...?" is not an acceptable question structure for something that should be entirely neutral! It's a textbook example of a leading question, but obviously this will be sorted out in due course.
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TheHeretic

73,668 posts

162 months

Monday 15th October 2012
quotequote all
simoid said:
Asking "Do you agree...?" is not an acceptable question structure for something that should be entirely neutral! It's a textbook example of a leading question, but obviously this will be sorted out in due course.
Agree entirely. You could answer yes to the opposing questions without issues, depending on how they are worded.

"Do you agree that Scotland has the right to self determination, and independence?" - Yes.
"Do you agree that Scotland should remain part of the United Kingdom?" - Yes.



simoid

15,438 posts

65 months

Monday 15th October 2012
quotequote all
Referendum Ballot said:
"Do you agree that Scotland should be an independent country?"
My full answer:

A: Yes, I agree, Scotland should be an independent country. But unfortunately I think it's not economically viable or sensible at present, because we'll be much more stable and prosperous in the UK.

So I can agree with the question, but not want to vote positively for it wobble

thinfourth2

32,414 posts

111 months

Monday 15th October 2012
quotequote all


snigger

Wombat3

7,941 posts

113 months

Monday 15th October 2012
quotequote all
ViperPict said:
el stovey said:
The SNP never really expected to get into this situation, they only got voted in because Labour have done so badly and Scottish people won't vote Conservative outside small parts of Edinburgh. So they promised to have a referendum on independence and have to now go along with it. Respect to them for not welching out like Cameron did over Europe.

The SNP know, or strongly suspect, Scottish people won't vote for independence and tried to have the third option which was just more Westminster money AND power for Scotland, unsurprisingly that wasn't popular in Westminster.

I expect that even if Braveheart is shown the night before the vote thankfully there will only be about 30% in favour of independence. At best, the SNP can hope that the vote and the activity beforehand, will be enough to result in some more concessions or devolved powers for Scotland.
I agree with most of what you've written. Although I think the vote will be a lot closer than most folk think. Two years to go, during which time the general Scottish populace (not the privelaged few who tend to post on here) will get more and more disenchanted with Dave et al. I think the alternative to the status quo will start to look more and more worth the risk.
Oh so now there is a risk to this? And what would that be exactly then? I thought you said it would just all be fine & work itself out?

simoid

15,438 posts

65 months

Monday 15th October 2012
quotequote all
Wombat3 said:
Oh so now there is a risk to this? And what would that be exactly then? I thought you said it would just all be fine & work itself out?
Although Wombat has asked in a slightly confrontational manner, I think we'd be delighted to read a brief summary of your appraisal of the risks and rewards of independence, VP. Top 3 of each, in order of importance to you, will do, so we can better understand your position, and perhaps stop slagging you off so muchsmile

ViperPict

10,055 posts

144 months

Monday 15th October 2012
quotequote all
simoid said:
ViperPict said:
simoid said:
ViperPict said:
Well, guess what? It's the SNP's proposed date and question, not Westminster's!
Only once they find a question that is not horrendously leading in nature, and is acceptable to the electoral commission...
It is not horrendously leading in nature! laugh

Do you seriously think that it would trick folk into not voting the way they want to?!

Seriously...
Asking "Do you agree...?" is not an acceptable question structure for something that should be entirely neutral! It's a textbook example of a leading question, but obviously this will be sorted out in due course.
But do you think it'll influence people's vote?!

ViperPict

10,055 posts

144 months

Monday 15th October 2012
quotequote all
Wombat3 said:
ViperPict said:
el stovey said:
The SNP never really expected to get into this situation, they only got voted in because Labour have done so badly and Scottish people won't vote Conservative outside small parts of Edinburgh. So they promised to have a referendum on independence and have to now go along with it. Respect to them for not welching out like Cameron did over Europe.

The SNP know, or strongly suspect, Scottish people won't vote for independence and tried to have the third option which was just more Westminster money AND power for Scotland, unsurprisingly that wasn't popular in Westminster.

I expect that even if Braveheart is shown the night before the vote thankfully there will only be about 30% in favour of independence. At best, the SNP can hope that the vote and the activity beforehand, will be enough to result in some more concessions or devolved powers for Scotland.
I agree with most of what you've written. Although I think the vote will be a lot closer than most folk think. Two years to go, during which time the general Scottish populace (not the privelaged few who tend to post on here) will get more and more disenchanted with Dave et al. I think the alternative to the status quo will start to look more and more worth the risk.
Oh so now there is a risk to this? And what would that be exactly then? I thought you said it would just all be fine & work itself out?
Implicitly, change is perceived as risky, even if it is not...

ViperPict

10,055 posts

144 months

Monday 15th October 2012
quotequote all
simoid said:
Wombat3 said:
Oh so now there is a risk to this? And what would that be exactly then? I thought you said it would just all be fine & work itself out?
Although Wombat has asked in a slightly confrontational manner, I think we'd be delighted to read a brief summary of your appraisal of the risks and rewards of independence, VP. Top 3 of each, in order of importance to you, will do, so we can better understand your position, and perhaps stop slagging you off so muchsmile
I have never said there was not risk! There is risk in everything, although that risk may be insufficient to be change your mind on something.

I think we there is risk of Scotland not becoming the fairer society it could be by staying in the Union.

I think there is risk that the important issues specifically affecting Scotland (and not necessarily the rUK) will be neglected by staying in the UK.

I think that there is risk that the Westminster government's economic policy will negatively effect the economy the UK for many years to come.

simoid

15,438 posts

65 months

Monday 15th October 2012
quotequote all
ViperPict said:
simoid said:
ViperPict said:
simoid said:
ViperPict said:
Well, guess what? It's the SNP's proposed date and question, not Westminster's!
Only once they find a question that is not horrendously leading in nature, and is acceptable to the electoral commission...
It is not horrendously leading in nature! laugh

Do you seriously think that it would trick folk into not voting the way they want to?!

Seriously...
Asking "Do you agree...?" is not an acceptable question structure for something that should be entirely neutral! It's a textbook example of a leading question, but obviously this will be sorted out in due course.
But do you think it'll influence people's vote?!
I don't know. Leading questions influence the answers, perhaps not in a vote of this magnitude. It's more the principalprinciple that such an important issue is being meddled with, and it's not entirely neutral question.

Should be something more like:

"Should the Scottish Government negotiate with the UK Parliament to bring about Scottish Independence, at the earliest opportunity?

Yes [ ]
No [ ]"



or



"The Scottish Government should negotiate with the UK Parliament to bring about Scottish Independence, at the earliest opportunity."

I agree [ ]
I do not agree [ ]"



Edited by simoid on Monday 15th October 13:13

mcdjl

2,647 posts

102 months

Monday 15th October 2012
quotequote all
Both governments appear to have agreed it could have an influence, hence what will happen in autumn/winter 2012 according to this: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-pol...

ViperPict

10,055 posts

144 months

Monday 15th October 2012
quotequote all
simoid said:
ViperPict said:
simoid said:
ViperPict said:
simoid said:
ViperPict said:
Well, guess what? It's the SNP's proposed date and question, not Westminster's!
Only once they find a question that is not horrendously leading in nature, and is acceptable to the electoral commission...
It is not horrendously leading in nature! laugh

Do you seriously think that it would trick folk into not voting the way they want to?!

Seriously...
Asking "Do you agree...?" is not an acceptable question structure for something that should be entirely neutral! It's a textbook example of a leading question, but obviously this will be sorted out in due course.
But do you think it'll influence people's vote?!
I don't know. Leading questions influence the answers, perhaps not in a vote of this magnitude. It's more the principalprinciple that such an important issue is being meddled with, and it's not entirely neutral question.

Should be something more like:

"Should the Scottish Government negotiate with the UK Parliament to bring about Scottish Independence, at the earliest opportunity?

Yes [ ]
No [ ]"



or



"The Scottish Government should negotiate with the UK Parliament to bring about Scottish Independence, at the earliest opportunity."

I agree [ ]
I do not agree [ ]"



Edited by simoid on Monday 15th October 13:13
Your questions would confuse folk - "What are we voting for?" The 'negotiations' (as far as the word has been used thus far) refer to the process following a yes vote...

ViperPict

10,055 posts

144 months

Monday 15th October 2012
quotequote all
mcdjl said:
Both governments appear to have agreed it could have an influence, hence what will happen in autumn/winter 2012 according to this: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-pol...
I presume you mean 2014?

TheHeretic

73,668 posts

162 months

Monday 15th October 2012
quotequote all
ViperPict said:
I presume you mean 2014?
No, he doesn't. Read the timeline.

ViperPict

10,055 posts

144 months

Monday 15th October 2012
quotequote all
thinfourth2 said:


snigger
I wonder how ironic you realise that post is?

BliarOut

64,586 posts

146 months

Monday 15th October 2012
quotequote all
ViperPict said:
simoid said:
Wombat3 said:
Oh so now there is a risk to this? And what would that be exactly then? I thought you said it would just all be fine & work itself out?
Although Wombat has asked in a slightly confrontational manner, I think we'd be delighted to read a brief summary of your appraisal of the risks and rewards of independence, VP. Top 3 of each, in order of importance to you, will do, so we can better understand your position, and perhaps stop slagging you off so muchsmile
I have never said there was not risk! There is risk in everything, although that risk may be insufficient to be change your mind on something.

I think we there is risk of Scotland not becoming the fairer society it could be by staying in the Union.

I think there is risk that the important issues specifically affecting Scotland (and not necessarily the rUK) will be neglected by staying in the UK.

I think that there is risk that the Westminster government's economic policy will negatively effect the economy the UK for many years to come.
I think most of us here believe that there is a stronger risk of Scotland becoming a basket case economy should they choose to go it alone.
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