Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 2
Discussion
martin84 said:
This is going to be a fight worthy of popcorn. On the face of it the Lib Dems and Labour will back David Cameron up on his wish to keep the Union intact but there's other games underway here. Scotland matters to the Labour Party as they currently hold 41 Scottish seats which make up 16% of their total from 2010. The SNP are in a position where every other party is against them, Labour are going to attack them and they will get vicious.
This should be good.
Not every other party are against the SNP (Scottish Socialists, Greens). Also, I would expect some significant proponents of Devo-Max jumping to the YES campaign in the nest 2 years. Henry McLeish anyone?This should be good.
Even so I still think Scotland is very important for Labour from a purely General Election point of view. The Conservative's haven't had multiple MP's in Scotland for 20 years, losing Scottish votes really wouldn't bother David Cameron although you could say his biggest problem may actually be the purple ties rather than reds.
If they do vote yes then you have to wonder where we'd be now had they done so 10 years ago. Gordon Brown's constituency is in Scotland.
If they do vote yes then you have to wonder where we'd be now had they done so 10 years ago. Gordon Brown's constituency is in Scotland.
ViperPict said:
In all seriousness though, both sides (and anyone the referendum affects) should feel in a 'better place' right now than last week. At least we have a legally binding vote that both sides (on the face of it) claim to be happy with. Let battle commence. It's going to be a very interesting 2 years. 
This isn't a legally binding vote, all it covers is the legality of holding the referendum, it doesn't commit anyone to actually hold it or to abide by the result.(OK, it's highly unlikely that the result would be ignored, but no referendum in the UK can ever be legally binding.)
ViperPict said:
I think that they were so focussed on the single question issue that they pretty much gave the SG everything else they wanted.
A theory doing the rounds is that the SNP genuinely never wanted Devo-Max as an option - independence would never have been delivered with that as an option. But they made the NO campaign believe they did want it. Classic bluff. And now we have the single question 'forced' upon us and, lo and behold, the soon to be published public consultation shows that the vast majority of Scots DID want it. But it is now very well documented that the 'evil Tories' demanded we couldn't have that option. It could be seen as a VERY well played hand. Or not as the case may but I guess time will now tell.
Of course. And when they lose the referendum they will be portraying that as a victory as well!A theory doing the rounds is that the SNP genuinely never wanted Devo-Max as an option - independence would never have been delivered with that as an option. But they made the NO campaign believe they did want it. Classic bluff. And now we have the single question 'forced' upon us and, lo and behold, the soon to be published public consultation shows that the vast majority of Scots DID want it. But it is now very well documented that the 'evil Tories' demanded we couldn't have that option. It could be seen as a VERY well played hand. Or not as the case may but I guess time will now tell.
Robert Burns said:
Your all looking at the industry in the wrong way.
Instead of the money from taxes being made. Look at it as taxes + jobs. Where Aberdeen has over 120,000 jobs just for it with 120,000 needed before 2020. Then the industries that run off this that have places around the UK providing jobs in almost every corner in the UK from Aberdeen to Slough. When you look at it that way its a good provider for the economy.
The industry is undoubtedly very important but the issue in this context is the impact on public revenues. In the UK context the amount raised from North Sea Oil and Gas is now pretty small (1.5% ish) but in the context of Scotland it isn't - somewhere in the region of 15% of public revenue.Instead of the money from taxes being made. Look at it as taxes + jobs. Where Aberdeen has over 120,000 jobs just for it with 120,000 needed before 2020. Then the industries that run off this that have places around the UK providing jobs in almost every corner in the UK from Aberdeen to Slough. When you look at it that way its a good provider for the economy.
That revenue is going to decline as output declines, the cost of extraction rises and decommissioning costs rise. So a country that already has a serious budget deficit has a major source of public sector income under threat whilst perversely the rest of the UK starts to see increasing revenue from gas in non Scottish waters.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/sc...
So how are you gonna pay for all that with a shrinking economy VP?
So how are you gonna pay for all that with a shrinking economy VP?
BliarOut said:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/sc...
So how are you gonna pay for all that with a shrinking economy VP?
<crystal ball mode>So how are you gonna pay for all that with a shrinking economy VP?
Its not true
everything will be all right due to some b
ks about complex systems that we don't understandand finally
It doesn't matter that everyone in Scotland ends up skint as they will have Scotland on their passport
</crystal ball mode>
thinfourth2 said:
BliarOut said:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/sc...
So how are you gonna pay for all that with a shrinking economy VP?
<crystal ball mode>So how are you gonna pay for all that with a shrinking economy VP?
Its not true
everything will be all right due to some b
ks about complex systems that we don't understandand finally
It doesn't matter that everyone in Scotland ends up skint as they will have Scotland on their passport
</crystal ball mode>
This was the drivel Ruth Davidson came out with and she's already been chastised by her bosses down south and ridiculed by everyone else.
If this is really the only sort of s
te propaganda what the NO campaign can come up with then they are in real trouble already...WhereamI said:
Robert Burns said:
Your all looking at the industry in the wrong way.
Instead of the money from taxes being made. Look at it as taxes + jobs. Where Aberdeen has over 120,000 jobs just for it with 120,000 needed before 2020. Then the industries that run off this that have places around the UK providing jobs in almost every corner in the UK from Aberdeen to Slough. When you look at it that way its a good provider for the economy.
The industry is undoubtedly very important but the issue in this context is the impact on public revenues. In the UK context the amount raised from North Sea Oil and Gas is now pretty small (1.5% ish) but in the context of Scotland it isn't - somewhere in the region of 15% of public revenue.Instead of the money from taxes being made. Look at it as taxes + jobs. Where Aberdeen has over 120,000 jobs just for it with 120,000 needed before 2020. Then the industries that run off this that have places around the UK providing jobs in almost every corner in the UK from Aberdeen to Slough. When you look at it that way its a good provider for the economy.
That revenue is going to decline as output declines, the cost of extraction rises and decommissioning costs rise. So a country that already has a serious budget deficit has a major source of public sector income under threat whilst perversely the rest of the UK starts to see increasing revenue from gas in non Scottish waters.
ViperPict said:
Explain in detail this 'serious budget deficit'? Bearing in mind Scotland pays more to the UK coffers than it receives. TI'm no expert but that is called something else isn't it? Er, something like a 'surplus'?
ActuallyThe last set of figure i saw say we spend more then we bring in.
However we have a lower deficit then the UK on average
This deficit is down largely to
I don't want to be called paranoid
ViperPict said:
thinfourth2 said:
BliarOut said:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/sc...
So how are you gonna pay for all that with a shrinking economy VP?
<crystal ball mode>So how are you gonna pay for all that with a shrinking economy VP?
Its not true
everything will be all right due to some b
ks about complex systems that we don't understandand finally
It doesn't matter that everyone in Scotland ends up skint as they will have Scotland on their passport
</crystal ball mode>
This was the drivel Ruth Davidson came out with and she's already been chastised by her bosses down south and ridiculed by everyone else.
If this is really the only sort of s
te propaganda what the NO campaign can come up with then they are in real trouble already...The floor is all yours...
ViperPict said:
Explain in detail this 'serious budget deficit'? Bearing in mind Scotland pays more to the UK coffers than it receives. TI'm no expert but that is called something else isn't it? Er, something like a 'surplus'?
As always on economics, you are wrong:http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/Statistics/Brows...
The Scottish government thinks it is in deficit, as does everyone else who understands these things.
Speaking as an Englishman, will everyone please stop bloody pointing out the realities of Scottish independence! 
If the pro-independence people are allowed to carry on living in cloud cuckoo land without anyone forcing the scales from their eyes, then there's a much greater chance that they will get a yes vote in the referendum and we can set about getting shot of them!
If the pro-independence people are allowed to carry on living in cloud cuckoo land without anyone forcing the scales from their eyes, then there's a much greater chance that they will get a yes vote in the referendum and we can set about getting shot of them!
Kermit power said:
Speaking as an Englishman, will everyone please stop bloody pointing out the realities of Scottish independence!
If the pro-independence people are allowed to carry on living in cloud cuckoo land without anyone forcing the scales from their eyes, then there's a much greater chance that they will get a yes vote in the referendum and we can set about getting shot of them!
If the pro-independence people are allowed to carry on living in cloud cuckoo land without anyone forcing the scales from their eyes, then there's a much greater chance that they will get a yes vote in the referendum and we can set about getting shot of them!
And personnelly i'm not wanting to pay 95% tax to pay for the socilaist dream where everything is banned to save one life
The other question that remains unanswered in a host of unanswered question concerns the EU subsidy currently paid by the United Kingdom.
Should Scotland opt for independence, the remains of the UK will re noegotiate our contribution to Europe (long overdue) Will Scotland therefore cease paying a "subsidy" to the UK only to replace it with one to Europe ?
thinfourth2 said:
Kermit power said:
Speaking as an Englishman, will everyone please stop bloody pointing out the realities of Scottish independence!
If the pro-independence people are allowed to carry on living in cloud cuckoo land without anyone forcing the scales from their eyes, then there's a much greater chance that they will get a yes vote in the referendum and we can set about getting shot of them!
If the pro-independence people are allowed to carry on living in cloud cuckoo land without anyone forcing the scales from their eyes, then there's a much greater chance that they will get a yes vote in the referendum and we can set about getting shot of them!
And personnelly i'm not wanting to pay 95% tax to pay for the socilaist dream where everything is banned to save one life
The fact remains, though, that if Scotland is a different country, then the Salmond can press on with his lunatic plans up there, leaving England safe from his nutteryness, and also providing a convenient safe haven for dynamic Scots who actually want to make the most of their own life.
ViperPict said:
Explain in detail this 'serious budget deficit'? Bearing in mind Scotland pays more to the UK coffers than it receives. TI'm no expert but that is called something else isn't it? Er, something like a 'surplus'?
You clearly aren't an expert because:Scotland.gov.uk said:
In 2010-11, Scotland’s estimated net fiscal balance was a deficit of...£10.7 billion when a geographical share of North Sea revenue is included.
Given that the income is £53.1 billion having to borrow an additional £10.7 billion to balance the books counts as a 'serious budget deficit'. (And yes, the UK also has a 'serious budget deficit' but at least has access to cheap money and has it's own currency, two things that won't apply to an independent Scotland).Kermit power said:
And I do feel for those of you who share this opinion up there. I've got Scottish mates down here who are thoroughly embarrassed by Salmond and so.
Every Scot who has ever freely offered their opinion (i.e. was not asked or pressured by me to do so) regarding the issue is embarrassed by this and also the ignominy and folly of Hollyrood.Seems to me there's a lot of political time and money being spent building empires to satisfy a very vocal minority.
Kermit power said:
And I do feel for those of you who share this opinion up there. I've got Scottish mates down here who are thoroughly embarrassed by Salmond and so.
The fact remains, though, that if Scotland is a different country, then the Salmond can press on with his lunatic plans up there, leaving England safe from his nutteryness, and also providing a convenient safe haven for dynamic Scots who actually want to make the most of their own life.
If the yes lot win then i am leaving Scotland as it will be down the sThe fact remains, though, that if Scotland is a different country, then the Salmond can press on with his lunatic plans up there, leaving England safe from his nutteryness, and also providing a convenient safe haven for dynamic Scots who actually want to make the most of their own life.
tterthankfully the NO campaign has VP on our side
Don't tell him
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