Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 2

[Edinburger]

simoid said:

I'll go further.

It's arguably selfish wasting so much time, effort and money at present on a referendum that is highly unlikely to lead to independence. The Yes campaign should do the decent thing and call off the vote so we can go back to our lives.

Continuing the fight, and expecting other people to waste time/effort/money debating against them, AFTER the country has voted to remain in the UK is beyond selfish.

You just can't say it's "highly unlikely to lead to independence" at this stage.

From my point of view, what you actualy mean is that the Yes campaign should do the decent thing and call off the vote so we can go back to our lives regarding Scotland as a troublesome northern county of England and not taking their often different or unique needs into consideration, while restricting their development and growth.

[Edinburger]

Caulkhead said:

Edinburger said:

Caulkhead said:

Nope, either way. The SNP have already royally cocked up this opportunity, only a fool would trust them if Scotland ever got a second chance.

How can you say that? The campaign has barely started and the referendum terms have only just been agreed!

I can say it easily, the polls are pitiful before the bad economic news gets forcibly released by the courts and as the two years go by the SNP will realise all their bluster counts for little as the facts emerge. If they'd have been honest and straight forward up to now I reckon we would've seen polls split 50/50 by now. Mark my words - independence will be lost by the SNP, not for any other reason.

Maybe aye, maybe naw.

Look, there's two years to go and there's a hell of a lot of facts and figures and projections to be shared so let's park the predictions 'til nearer the time.

[Edinburger]

mcdjl said:

Edinburger said:

Okay I was obviously joking. That is interesting.

I thought I saw a report on the BBC that the referendum was harming Scotlands economy/investment. I'll have a look later though may have imagined it.

Okay, thanks. I'd find that really interesting.

[Edinburger]

Rollin said:

Edinburger said:

Those of you who go on and on and on about the SNP withholding information should read this article. It's a few years old but a colleague mentioned this earlier and it's an interesting read: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/...

You'll have to start blaming Wilson instead of Thatcher for all your ills then.

No surprise that this is the only response made...

[thinfourth2]

Edinburger said:

Rollin said:

Edinburger said:

Those of you who go on and on and on about the SNP withholding information should read this article. It's a few years old but a colleague mentioned this earlier and it's an interesting read: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/...

You'll have to start blaming Wilson instead of Thatcher for all your ills then.

No surprise that this is the only response made...

Well it is something that happened 37 years ago

I fail to see the relevance to today

But the whole independence movement dwells in the past

[London424]

Edinburger said:

simoid said:

I'll go further.

It's arguably selfish wasting so much time, effort and money at present on a referendum that is highly unlikely to lead to independence. The Yes campaign should do the decent thing and call off the vote so we can go back to our lives.

Continuing the fight, and expecting other people to waste time/effort/money debating against them, AFTER the country has voted to remain in the UK is beyond selfish.

You just can't say it's "highly unlikely to lead to independence" at this stage.

From my point of view, what you actualy mean is that the Yes campaign should do the decent thing and call off the vote so we can go back to our lives regarding Scotland as a troublesome northern county of England and not taking their often different or unique needs into consideration, while restricting their development and growth.

So, as has been asked many times (not of you specifically), what development and growth opportunities are being restricted? What could an independent Scotland do that it cannot do now?

[mcdjl]

Edinburger said:

mcdjl said:

Edinburger said:

Okay I was obviously joking. That is interesting.

I thought I saw a report on the BBC that the referendum was harming Scotlands economy/investment. I'll have a look later though may have imagined it.

Okay, thanks. I'd find that really interesting.

Sorry, I can't find anything, I think I'll have to concede that I may have dreamt it up. I can find claims by Cameron/Osborne that the referendum is delaying investment but think that while they could be correct they could also be slightly biased.
As for the 70s report that you linked to as you say interesting. I have no doubt that such a thing is possible from both sides today: if Salmond had a report written that said that independence would cost Scotland dear i suspect that he would try to keep it secret, and the same on the side of the Uk government. I think that they're politicians and in it for themselves so gathering as much information as possible without their input is useful: this is one of the reasons i think its a shame VP wont explain his reasoning in a way that its easier for the rest of us to follow. Going back to your original point, it probably wouldn't have been possible for the independence movement to get such a report written back then so the current climate is definitely better for both sides. Its also interesting to note that (if i remember correctly- see above for doubts) that it appears that even back in the 70s companies were having worries about a socialist scotland- would this have allowed development in the same way that did happen given a different set up? Given the problems Venezuala (a random socilist country, not entirely fair) seem to be having despite vast oil riches its not a given that Scotland would be Switzerland. Besides would there have been anymore jobs? For everyone to get rich the people/companies working in oil would have to have been taxed as much or more as they are now so they're unlikely to be any richer overall. Historically could Scotland have lent to rUK? Possibly, but that depends on how many years the spending has flowed one way or the other: at the moment its roughly neutral but oil revenue is currently declining suggesting it could have flowed south previously. In the future it could flow north again so benefits to both sides but at different times?

[Edinburger]

thinfourth2 said:

Edinburger said:

Rollin said:

Edinburger said:

Those of you who go on and on and on about the SNP withholding information should read this article. It's a few years old but a colleague mentioned this earlier and it's an interesting read: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/...

You'll have to start blaming Wilson instead of Thatcher for all your ills then.

No surprise that this is the only response made...

Well it is something that happened 37 years ago

I fail to see the relevance to today

But the whole independence movement dwells in the past

You fail to see the relevance today? Then why do you hark on about events from yesteryear and comparisons with other countries?

[ViperPict]

mcdjl said:

Edinburger said:

Okay I was obviously joking. That is interesting.

I thought I saw a report on the BBC that the referendum was harming Scotlands economy/investment. I'll have a look later though may have imagined it.

There are also companies that have come out and said that it is NOT having any influence on their investment.

[ViperPict]

mcdjl said:

Edinburger said:

mcdjl said:

Edinburger said:

Okay I was obviously joking. That is interesting.

I thought I saw a report on the BBC that the referendum was harming Scotlands economy/investment. I'll have a look later though may have imagined it.

Okay, thanks. I'd find that really interesting.

Sorry, I can't find anything, I think I'll have to concede that I may have dreamt it up. I can find claims by Cameron/Osborne that the referendum is delaying investment but think that while they could be correct they could also be slightly biased.
As for the 70s report that you linked to as you say interesting. I have no doubt that such a thing is possible from both sides today: if Salmond had a report written that said that independence would cost Scotland dear i suspect that he would try to keep it secret, and the same on the side of the Uk government. I think that they're politicians and in it for themselves so gathering as much information as possible without their input is useful: this is one of the reasons i think its a shame VP wont explain his reasoning in a way that its easier for the rest of us to follow. Going back to your original point, it probably wouldn't have been possible for the independence movement to get such a report written back then so the current climate is definitely better for both sides. Its also interesting to note that (if i remember correctly- see above for doubts) that it appears that even back in the 70s companies were having worries about a socialist scotland- would this have allowed development in the same way that did happen given a different set up? Given the problems Venezuala (a random socilist country, not entirely fair) seem to be having despite vast oil riches its not a given that Scotland would be Switzerland. Besides would there have been anymore jobs? For everyone to get rich the people/companies working in oil would have to have been taxed as much or more as they are now so they're unlikely to be any richer overall. Historically could Scotland have lent to rUK? Possibly, but that depends on how many years the spending has flowed one way or the other: at the moment its roughly neutral but oil revenue is currently declining suggesting it could have flowed south previously. In the future it could flow north again so benefits to both sides but at different times?

There certainly is NOT the consensus from companies that they consider the upcoming referendum a reason not to invest!

[thinfourth2]

ViperPict said:

There are also companies that have come out and said that it is NOT having any influence on their investment.

Well they probably believe in polls

Where as my company is playing it safe

[mcdjl]

ViperPict said:

There certainly is NOT the consensus from companies that they consider the upcoming referendum a reason not to invest!

Did i ever say there was? in fact if you read what i posted rather than just replying you'll find that i admit i can't back up my claims and am willing to withdraw them. Alternatively i could just shout "you're wrong, you're wrong, you're wrong, go out and look for them, the links do exist" which seems to be some peoples approach to debate.

[London424]

I would think that every business leader should be considering the implications of independence. If I was a business owner and didn't know the ramifications of investing money in a certain direction I'd be waiting to find out more rather than jump in feet first.

Note: That reasoning alone may be why I'll never be a business owner

[thinfourth2]

Edinburger said:

You fail to see the relevance today? Then why do you hark on about events from yesteryear and comparisons with other countries?

Explain the relevance

Also i hark back to events of 2 years ago which is of more relevance then 37 years ago as to those that think that events from 300 years ago should be in the debate

Their just mental

[Edinburger]

Guam said:

Edinburger said:

No surprise that this is the only response made...

Why its ancient history now? maybe you can find yourself a Tardis and go back and change things!

In any event as we were and still are in a Union the article is mildly interesting but of no import <except for those trying to foment some form of political agenda>.

Hardly ancient history - it happened in my lifetime!

[ViperPict]

thinfourth2 said:

ViperPict said:

There are also companies that have come out and said that it is NOT having any influence on their investment.

Well they probably believe in polls

Where as my company is playing it safe

You? Playing it safe? Never!

[ViperPict]

mcdjl said:

ViperPict said:

There certainly is NOT the consensus from companies that they consider the upcoming referendum a reason not to invest!

Did i ever say there was? in fact if you read what i posted rather than just replying you'll find that i admit i can't back up my claims and am willing to withdraw them. Alternatively i could just shout "you're wrong, you're wrong, you're wrong, go out and look for them, the links do exist" which seems to be some peoples approach to debate.

Your posts do ramble a bit. Short and sweet gets most attention.

[Edinburger]

thinfourth2 said:

ViperPict said:

There are also companies that have come out and said that it is NOT having any influence on their investment.

Well they probably believe in polls

Where as my company is playing it safe

Did you have any involvement in their decision? Be honest...?

[ViperPict]

London424 said:

I would think that every business leader should be considering the implications of independence. If I was a business owner and didn't know the ramifications of investing money in a certain direction I'd be waiting to find out more rather than jump in feet first.

Note: That reasoning alone may be why I'll never be a business owner

Of course they think about it. But many have though about it and came back with, at worst, "meh", more likely, "with change brings great opportunity"...

[Edinburger]

mcdjl said:

ViperPict said:

There certainly is NOT the consensus from companies that they consider the upcoming referendum a reason not to invest!

Did i ever say there was? in fact if you read what i posted rather than just replying you'll find that i admit i can't back up my claims and am willing to withdraw them. Alternatively i could just shout "you're wrong, you're wrong, you're wrong, go out and look for them, the links do exist" which seems to be some peoples approach to debate.

It was an interesting approach and post, thanks for that. But the fact remains that there is no quantifiable evidence for companies not investing in Scotland due to the forthcoming referendum. Apart from thinfourth2's employer.