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Guam
Original Poster
15,564 posts
138 months
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frosted
3,549 posts
47 months
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I really hope the government sticks by this but I really doubt it. Clearly the tax system is over complicated for no apparent reason
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IainT
8,095 posts
108 months
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Odd article, I must be misunderstanding something. It seems to be about contractors working through their usual contracting vehicles, umbrella companies, Ltd Cos, etc.
Not about Civil Servants at all.
I contracted for Defra a number of years ago. I was never a Civil Servant.
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Murph7355
9,452 posts
126 months
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Iain - that's exactly what it's about. The tests are the same biased, trumped up b  ks to try and clarify/justify the shonky IR35 legislation they brought in years ago (to try and stop people being fully employed on a Friday and employed as a contractor with the same firm on a Monday - but which they are also using to try and share genuine small businesses). Possibly an admirable aim, but the legislation sucks moose cock and what they are doing is trying to paper over cracks the size of the Grand Canyon.
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Digga
10,939 posts
153 months
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They can start with this and then get on with the two important and no less onerous tasks of: - getting shot of people who are not doing their jobs properly (a.k.a. running some semblance of what a commercial entity might recognise as an HR department)
- simplifying the unneccessarily (other than to justfiy more HMRC posts) tax system and rationalising HMRC
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Murph7355
9,452 posts
126 months
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Digga said: ... - getting shot of people who are not doing their jobs properly (a.k.a. running some semblance of what a commercial entity might recognise as an HR department)...
To be fair, I increasingly think s t HR departments are more a result of the size of organisations rather than whether public/private sector. I've seen plenty of s t private sector HR departments and invariably the better ones (backbone; understanding of the law; understanding of business requirements) have all been in smaller firms and/or properly autonomous parts of large ones.
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Norfolkit
807 posts
60 months
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So the government yaks on about needing a flexible workforce but doesn't have the foggiest that companies use contractors to resource up(and down) quickly. They have little or no job security, no pension contributions, no paid holiday and few other benefits other than higher pay and tax breaks.
If you want flexibility you have to make it attractive for people to be contractors (and no, I'm not one).
Wouldn't hurt Civil Servants and MPs to get out in the real world occasionally, "just to see how it works like, you wouldn't have to do anything".
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vonuber
4,125 posts
35 months
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It's just like rain on your wedding day.
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SLacKer
2,047 posts
77 months
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Or a free ride when you've already paid.
Wouldn't life be simpler to just ditch IR35 legislation. What a waste of everyone's time and energy.
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Fatboy
7,292 posts
142 months
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98elise
3,363 posts
31 months
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IainT said: Odd article, I must be misunderstanding something. It seems to be about contractors working through their usual contracting vehicles, umbrella companies, Ltd Cos, etc.
Not about Civil Servants at all.
I contracted for Defra a number of years ago. I was never a Civil Servant. This, I'm currently contracting to a government department, I am not (nor do i want to be) a civil servant. My contract will end at christmas, and I will then move onto another contact where ever that may be. I am there only for the period they need my skills/experience, which they don't have in house. If they were to tell me that I had to be employed PAYE then I would leave and contract else where. Why would I stay? I've been offered other jobs while doing this one, so its not hard to pick up another contract. They need to make the distinction between people who are filling a full time job rather than bringing a set of skills for a defined period.
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sugerbear
532 posts
28 months
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i agree, do away with ir35 and then tax everyone on the same basis. one man it contractors provide no economic benefit to the country, they simoly use the umbrella co or ltd company to pay less tax.
tax incentives should be directed at those entrepeneurs that provide employment to others (and that does not include their spouse)
one man contractors = tax dodgers
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Murph7355
9,452 posts
126 months
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sugerbear said: ...one man it contractors provide no economic benefit to the country, ... You think so do you. When you find your arse and your elbow, drop me a line and I'll demonstrate the difference to you (for a reasonable fee).
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Dr Jekyll
5,734 posts
131 months
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sugerbear said: i agree, do away with ir35 and then tax everyone on the same basis. one man it contractors provide no economic benefit to the country, they simoly use the umbrella co or ltd company to pay less tax.
tax incentives should be directed at those entrepeneurs that provide employment to others (and that does not include their spouse)
one man contractors = tax dodgers The client I work does not want to take on PAYE employees, they don't want that commitment for skills which they may not need long term. Therefore the only way I can work for them is using either an umbrella or my own LTD company. I can either became a one man contractor or sit at home collecting dole money. 1) Which would you prefer? 2) How am I providing any less economic benefit than if I was working directly PAYE? 3) Given that I am paid by the umbrella company ona PAYE basis, what tax am I dodging? 4) How am I dodging tax?
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frank hovis
204 posts
134 months
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sugerbear said: i agree, do away with ir35 and then tax everyone on the same basis. one man it contractors provide no economic benefit to the country, they simoly use the umbrella co or ltd company to pay less tax.
tax incentives should be directed at those entrepeneurs that provide employment to others (and that does not include their spouse)
one man contractors = tax dodgers Utter rubbish I pay more tax than I would as staff and take home more money which then goes on consumption taxes Utterly retarded comment
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swamp
546 posts
59 months
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The Telegraph article is hopelessly misinformed. The new rules have nothing to do with 'civil servants'. They concern independent contractors who work in highly skilled roles in the public sector.
So apart from some (misplaced) 'schadenfreude', what exactly will happen in September?
Well it's likely that many contractors will stop working for public sector clients and find work elsewhere. Meanwhile thousands of projects will remain incomplete and the skills gap will need to be plugged. Many thousands of £400+ per day contractors will be replaced by many thousands of £1000+ a day 'consultants' from the big consultancies. And/or, there will be a large increase in workers from India on ICT visas.
The big loser here will be the British taxpayer. The provision of public services will become far harder and far more expensive without the expert help of independent contractors.
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sugerbear
532 posts
28 months
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frank hovis said: sugerbear said: i agree, do away with ir35 and then tax everyone on the same basis. one man it contractors provide no economic benefit to the country, they simoly use the umbrella co or ltd company to pay less tax.
tax incentives should be directed at those entrepeneurs that provide employment to others (and that does not include their spouse)
one man contractors = tax dodgers Utter rubbish I pay more tax than I would as staff and take home more money which then goes on consumption taxes Utterly retarded comment I think you will find that your accountant is lacking, not my comments. Having worked in IT development since 95 ever single "contractor" I know pays less than the equivalently payed PAYE employee. They bleat about job security and no holidays and lack of job security but it's all bulls t. That is the excuse they choose to roll out. As a PAYE employee I can't claim back vat or buy assets and set those against profits. I also can't use my partners tax allowance to offset the tax I should be paying. So please don't post your consultant tax bulls t to me.
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Murph7355
9,452 posts
126 months
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sugerbear said: ... As a PAYE employee I can't claim back vat or buy assets and set those against profits. I also can't use my partners tax allowance to offset the tax I should be paying. So please don't post your consultant tax bulls t to me. So your real issue is that you are feeling hard done by as an 18yr veteran IT developer. Is there a reason you have not gone contracting yourself? I mean, it's all totally kosher and within the law, so what's to stop you? It's evidently not OK by you for a contractor to "bleat on" about job security but perfectly fine for you to 'bleat on" about how much tax you pay in relation to the contractors you are aware of. Get off your arse and go contracting if you think it's easy and you'll pay less tax doing so. Otherwise quit moaning and get on with your COBOL.
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ewenm
24,629 posts
115 months
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This is the issue of senior civil servants paying themselves as contractors isn't it? IMO if you have the power to hire and fire or have any line management responsibility, you're more an employee than a contractor. If you're a code monkey (ok ok specialist skills  ) then contractors are fine.
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swamp
546 posts
59 months
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ewenm said: This is the issue of senior civil servants paying themselves as contractors isn't it? No, not any more. The Treasury have expanded their witch hunt to include virtually all contractors working in the civil service.
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