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mcdjl
1,605 posts
64 months
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Art0ir said: mcdjl said: Once they did find out what could they do to stop it? Would anyone have seriously proposed shooting down an airliner full of their own citizens before 9/11? I doubt it It's standard protocol, unfortunately it's part of the Air Force's job to do things like that in the event of a hijacking. However that morning, it appears they were told to stand down. Andrews airforce base was 10 miles from the Pentagon and had two operational combat squads there that didn't follow standard protocol by intercepting the Pentagon flight as it entered the most restricted airspace in the world. I'm not saying it lends any credence to a conspiracy, but you shouldn't confuse what you think is right and wrong with what the Air Force protocol is relating to hijacked flights. To shoot it down or intercept and escort it? They do appear to cocked up right royally in not getting up there to have a look!
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ofcorsa
2,755 posts
112 months
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By the book,the best stragegy is to shoot down the civilian airliner. I imagine the reality of pulling the trigger is much different.
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Rollin
2,247 posts
114 months
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Art0ir said: mcdjl said: Once they did find out what could they do to stop it? Would anyone have seriously proposed shooting down an airliner full of their own citizens before 9/11? I doubt it It's standard protocol, unfortunately it's part of the Air Force's job to do things like that in the event of a hijacking. However that morning, it appears they were told to stand down. Andrews airforce base was 10 miles from the Pentagon and had two operational combat squads there that didn't follow standard protocol by intercepting the Pentagon flight as it entered the most restricted airspace in the world. I'm not saying it lends any credence to a conspiracy, but you shouldn't confuse what you think is right and wrong with what the Air Force protocol is relating to hijacked flights. Can you give me examples of hijacked planes being shot down as per "Standard Protocol" before 9/11?
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mcdjl
1,605 posts
64 months
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Further reading suggests that some of the fighter pilots scrambled were prepared to take down the flight 93 by crashing into it as they weren't armed when scrambled.
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Art0ir
3,564 posts
39 months
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Rollin said: Can you give me examples of hijacked planes being shot down as per "Standard Protocol" before 9/11? Of course there isn't, when I say "intercept" I mean engage them, tail them, rock their wings back and forth to signal "follow me" in the event of radio failure. Then in the event of this not happening, the president can give the order to shoot it down or at least authorise other commanders to make that call. Given two planes had just smashed into the WTC 1&2, it was very odd he decided not to assume responsibility as Commander in Chief or that authorisation wasn't passed on. This is a great, impartial and factual article that looks at the tapes from NORAD's NE HQ on the morning and proves top brass lied consistently during the hearings and subsequent investigations about what happened that morning. http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2006/0...At best it shows complete incompetence on behalf of those in charge. The main excuse is that the hijackers turned off the transponders. Can we assume that if the Ruskies ever try a bombing run that they will leave their radar beacons on to allow interception? Monte Belger Deputy Administrator FAA said: Prior to 9/11, the procedures for managing a traditional hijacked aircraft, as I said, were in place and pretty well tested.... The most frustrating after-the-fact scenario for me to understand is to explain is the communication link on that morning between the FAA operations center and the NMCC (National Military Command Center).... The hijacking net is an open communication net run by the FAA hijack coordinator, who is a senior person from the FAA security organization, for the purpose of getting the affected federal agencies together to hear information at the same time.... It was my assumption that morning, as it had been for my 30 years of experience with the FAA, that the NMCC was on that net and hearing everything real-time..... I can tell you I've lived through dozens of hijackings in my 30-year FAA career, as a very low entry-level inspector up through to the headquarters, and they (the military brass) were always there. They were always on the net, and were always listening in with everybody else..... from my perspective there is no doubt in my mind that the FAA security organization knew what to do. There is no doubt in my mind that the air traffic organization knew what to do. They are the two key players in that type of scenario.... this is very, very important, in response to your question.... the NMCC was called. They were added to this open communication net. In my 30 years of history, there was always somebody listening to that net..... I truly do not mean this to be defensive, but it is a fact -- there were military people on duty at the FAA Command Center on the morning of 9/11, as Mr. Sliney said. They were participating in what was going on. There were military people in the FAA's Air Traffic Organization in a situation room. They were participating in what was going on.
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MX7
6,543 posts
43 months
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odyssey2200 said: While there are some who go out of their way to be Ike-esque in their levels of paranoia, they are balanced by the true believers who swallow anything that the Gov't says and attack those who dare to ask questions.
I think that, given the inordinate amount of utter nonsense on this thread, the attacks have been quite light. From a personal view, it' the first time that I've read a thread that's left me convinced that mental health issues are a factor.
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Mermaid
12,490 posts
40 months
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MX7 said: I think that, given the inordinate amount of utter nonsense on this thread, the attacks have been quite light.
From a personal view, it' the first time that I've read a thread that's left me convinced that mental health issues are a factor. Attacks not necessary, indulge people.  I am convinced that that all we have here is different views, different experiences. Conspiracy & religion - big difference?
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RDMcG
7,041 posts
76 months
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Mermaid said: Attacks not necessary, indulge people.  I am convinced that that all we have here is different views, different experiences. Conspiracy & religion - big difference? Well,,you can sometimes prove a conspiracy. Of course, when its just an imagined conspiracy, then its like religion. If you go back to one of the more famous, the Protocols of the Elders of Zion which was conclusively proved to be a complete forgery, there are still people who believe this, and for every piece of hard evidence, some kind of alternative is proposed....
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Art0ir
3,564 posts
39 months
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RDMcG said: Well,,you can sometimes prove a conspiracy. Of course, when its just an imagined conspiracy, then its like religion. If you go back to one of the more famous, the Protocols of the Elders of Zion which was conclusively proved to be a complete forgery, there are still people who believe this, and for every piece of hard evidence, some kind of alternative is proposed.... It is unfortunate that the Alex Jones' of the world have made any subject they cover completely taboo.
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MX7
6,543 posts
43 months
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Mermaid said: Attacks not necessary I didn't say that they were. I said that there had been very little in the way of attacks.
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MX7
6,543 posts
43 months
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Art0ir said: It is unfortunate that the Alex Jones' of the world have made any subject they cover completely taboo. I think there's an element of that, but I also think that the repeated f  kwittery that his like come out with becomes tiresome. 9/11 was 11 years ago. His ilk have talked a lot since then. Talk of the most heinous sort of mass murder. Talk of a perverse government. Talk of all sorts of organisations murdering fellow countrymen. How much have people like him proved 11 years on? f  k all. All people like Jones are doing is cashing in, and the people who are dim enough to be his disciples keep him afloat. If it wasn't Jones, it would be someone else, but whoever it is, after 11 years someone should have been able to come out with something. We're getting the the stage where we'll have a bunch of 9/11 'truthers' who weren't even born at the time! You cant expect people to listen forever when all they hear is a waterfall of diarrhea.
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Rollin
2,247 posts
114 months
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MX7 said: Art0ir said: It is unfortunate that the Alex Jones' of the world have made any subject they cover completely taboo. I think there's an element of that, but I also think that the repeated f  kwittery that his like come out with becomes tiresome. 9/11 was 11 years ago. His ilk have talked a lot since then. Talk of the most heinous sort of mass murder. Talk of a perverse government. Talk of all sorts of organisations murdering fellow countrymen. How much have people like him proved 11 years on? f  k all. All people like Jones are doing is cashing in, and the people who are dim enough to be his disciples keep him afloat. If it wasn't Jones, it would be someone else, but whoever it is, after 11 years someone should have been able to come out with something. We're getting the the stage where we'll have a bunch of 9/11 'truthers' who weren't even born at the time! You cant expect people to listen forever when all they hear is a waterfall of diarrhea. Not exactly taboo is it? Google anything to do with 9/11 and most of the results will be conspiracy b  ks. The followers all claim to be "open minded" and doing "research" yet fail to read (or understand) anything opposing their view.
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Art0ir
3,564 posts
39 months
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Rollin said: Not exactly taboo is it? Google anything to do with 9/11 and most of the results will be conspiracy b  ks. The followers all claim to be "open minded" and doing "research" yet fail to read (or understand) anything opposing their view. I'm certainly not a "follower",most definitely not averse to anyone challenging my points of view and I'm happy for anyone to correct me on anything I think I may understand. The only things I've posted in this thread point towards a massive failure in both intelligence and military leading up to the events and information being suppressed both leading up to the events and after.
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Mermaid
12,490 posts
40 months
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MX7 said: ...You cant expect people to listen forever when all they hear is a waterfall of diarrhea. People who challenge the conspiracy seem to be the most fervent listeners, rather than just ignoring the s  t. 
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Rollin
2,247 posts
114 months
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Art0ir said: Rollin said: Not exactly taboo is it? Google anything to do with 9/11 and most of the results will be conspiracy b  ks. The followers all claim to be "open minded" and doing "research" yet fail to read (or understand) anything opposing their view. I'm certainly not a "follower",most definitely not averse to anyone challenging my points of view and I'm happy for anyone to correct me on anything I think I may understand. The only things I've posted in this thread point towards a massive failure in both intelligence and military leading up to the events and information being suppressed both leading up to the events and after. You've pointed to a stand down of military aircraft. One would assume that this would involve someone giving an instruction that military planes should not intercept the flights. Do you have evidence that that is the case? How long does it take for the FAA to conclude that military planes are required? Do you have evidence that military planes were able to intercept the hijackers? How long does it take to get a plane in the air once scrambled? Do you know the time line of the attacks (this is important)? Do you know of any cases where military aircraft have intercepted civilian planes over the US before? Do you know what was different about the instance of interception that you will mention? All answers to these questions are easily found.
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Art0ir
3,564 posts
39 months
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Rollin said: All answers to these questions are easily found. Indeed they are, the Vanity Fair article lists the events in chronological order.
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MX7
6,543 posts
43 months
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Mermaid said: MX7 said: ...You cant expect people to listen forever when all they hear is a waterfall of diarrhea. People who challenge the conspiracy seem to be the most fervent listeners, rather than just ignoring the s  t.  Sorry? Actually, never mind.
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hornet
5,449 posts
119 months
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AJS- said: It looks vaguely plane like, but it could be anything really. No sign of the wings that sheered off (over 50 feet long) before the plane entered the building, no tail fin (they're 44 ft high!). Why would there be any sign of the wings? Seriously? They're an aluminium tube filled with fuel hitting a reinforced concrete building at several hundred miles and hour, what exactly are you expecting them to do, just go "doink!" and land neatly on the lawn, still full of fuel? Go and look at other big jet crashes and see how much remains when they hit something properly solid. The best example I can think of (as it's a big jet hitting a building) would be the 1992 Bijlmermeer crash, when an El-Al 747 cargo lost an engine and went down into a tower block. A 747 is a very large plane indeed, but one of the striking things about the photos of the scene is how little recognisable debris there is. Can you spot the wings anywhere, for example? I certainly can't, but it's not in doubt it was a 747 that went down. More Pentagon images Here and Here and Here. It's out there if you look for it. There was a thread on the Above Top Secret forum detailing all the debris, plus strike marks in keeping with a large wingspan, but I'm damned if I'm wading through that forum again to find it. Most of the photos are in the links above.
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Ace-T
5,438 posts
124 months
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No need for believing in conspiracy theories when you read this kind of thing http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/6210255/EU-...Fracking EU can sod right off, bunch of custards*. - new swear word shamelessly stolen from another PHr. Made from 2 other words, I'll let you guess what they are.
 Trace 
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Driller
5,237 posts
147 months
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