Login | Register
SearchMy Stuff
My ProfileMy PreferencesMy Mates RSS Feed
1
3 4 ... 8 9
Reply to Topic
Author Discussion

TheHeretic

73,668 posts

135 months

[news] 
Monday 17th September 2012 quote quote all
OllieC said:
nadger said:
OllieC said:
We cant have failure, heavens !
This is a common misconception. At GCSE level, the only grade that is a 'fail' is a U, every other grade is a pass. (OK there is an X as well, but you have to fail to turn up for the exam/write your name on the paper to get that!)
I didn't know that, but it kind of proves my point !
In that context a 'pass' simply means you got a grade for doing something. Employers know which of those grades to look for.

Blue62

1,747 posts

32 months

[news] 
Monday 17th September 2012 quote quote all
What I find particularly odd is that there is an implied assumption that the current system is not fit, but I haven't heard a Gov official coming out and saying that. Have I missed something?

OllieC

3,225 posts

94 months

[news] 
Monday 17th September 2012 quote quote all
TheHeretic said:
OllieC said:
nadger said:
OllieC said:
We cant have failure, heavens !
This is a common misconception. At GCSE level, the only grade that is a 'fail' is a U, every other grade is a pass. (OK there is an X as well, but you have to fail to turn up for the exam/write your name on the paper to get that!)
I didn't know that, but it kind of proves my point !
In that context a 'pass' simply means you got a grade for doing something. Employers know which of those grades to look for.
Yes, I suppose it is a moot point whether a D is a regarded as a pass or fail.

I believe schools are graded (as one metric at least) on percentage of pupils with 5 x grade a-c in GCSE, they certainly used to be in my day...

That would suggest to me anything less than C is not good.


elster

17,097 posts

90 months

[news] 
Monday 17th September 2012 quote quote all
Blue62 said:
What I find particularly odd is that there is an implied assumption that the current system is not fit, but I haven't heard a Gov official coming out and saying that. Have I missed something?
The problem is people like to think that their babies are the smartest there has ever been, and like to believe this.

So the GCSE system has enforced this.

At the same time on a global scale we are getting worse and worse.

Blue62

1,747 posts

32 months

[news] 
Monday 17th September 2012 quote quote all
elster said:
The problem is people like to think that their babies are the smartest there has ever been, and like to believe this.

So the GCSE system has enforced this.

At the same time on a global scale we are getting worse and worse.
I know that is the concensus view in the coalition, but is there any evidence as such?

Advertisement

nadger

492 posts

20 months

[news] 
Monday 17th September 2012 quote quote all
OllieC said:
TheHeretic said:
OllieC said:
nadger said:
OllieC said:
We cant have failure, heavens !
This is a common misconception. At GCSE level, the only grade that is a 'fail' is a U, every other grade is a pass. (OK there is an X as well, but you have to fail to turn up for the exam/write your name on the paper to get that!)
I didn't know that, but it kind of proves my point !
In that context a 'pass' simply means you got a grade for doing something. Employers know which of those grades to look for.
Yes, I suppose it is a moot point whether a D is a regarded as a pass or fail.

I believe schools are graded (as one metric at least) on percentage of pupils with 5 x grade a-c in GCSE, they certainly used to be in my day...

That would suggest to me anything less than C is not good.
You're right, schools are judged on their A*-C rate. However they're judged by an organisation that has as it's founding principle the aim to ensure that all schools are above average (OFSTED).
However, sadly, this measurement is as unfair as it is flawed. Students arrive at different schools with different skills and different aims and ambitions. As an example, in my class this year I have a student who is predicted to get an A*, and one that is predicted to get an E. If I get an A out of the student predicted an A*, it is still regarded as a success. If I get a D out of the student who is predicted an E, it is deemed as a failure. Sadly Gove, in his infinate wisdom, has scrapped the value added system (where schools are judged based on how many students the schools are able to get to or beyond their predicted grade).
As others have said, the exam system is flawed. However IMHO those in charge of re-arranging it have no idea how it should be done best! All they are doing is re-packaging the same, flawed examination system! We need to be looking at a differentiated system, like they have in Denmark, where students who wish to pursue an academic route are able to do so by going to a traditional college (gymnasium). Those that wish to work in the commercial work go to a commercial college (handelskole), and those that wish to do manual/technical work go to a technical college (teknisk skole). Sadly Gove and his fellow imbeciles have devalued the less academic subjects to the point that there is little or no point even offering them any more (even though they are so much better for the less academic students!)
/rant.

AJS-

11,450 posts

116 months

[news] 
Monday 17th September 2012 quote quote all
Both systems have their merits and their flaws, I think the important thing is to remember never to read too much into someone's academic qualifications. There are some thick people with blinding qualifications and some incredibly intelligent people with mediocre academic backgrounds.

There are also of course some incredibly intelligent people living on the breadline, and some people who seem thick as mince who are millionaires. GCSE, o-level or any other school leaving qualifications are a very poor indicator of future success in almost any endeavour.

nadger

492 posts

20 months

[news] 
Monday 17th September 2012 quote quote all
davepoth said:
BBC News is reporting it will be called the "English Baccalaureate" or E BAC for short.
The E-Bac has been around since the Conservative Government came to power. It was one of the first things that Gove announced (although I think it was only really picked up in educational circles!), and he also announced that schools would be judged by it's standards from that year (despite schools having no clue about it, and having been implementing the previous Government's systems correctly!). All the E-Bac means is that students achieve a C or higher in their English, Maths, Science, a language and a humanities subject (not RE). As such it isn't really a change of system, simply a 'repackaging!'

otolith

23,827 posts

84 months

[news] 
Monday 17th September 2012 quote quote all
There are two kinds of exam - those which show you have attained a fixed standard, and those which rank you against your peers. Which kind is appropriate depends on what the exam is for.

I think a basic school qualification like a GCSE should be standard based, as should an examination of competence in a skill or trade. A competitive examination for university entrance - like an A-level - should be graded against one's peers.

Having said that, even with a standards based exam, whole cohorts should not be getting higher and higher marks.

SeanyD

2,911 posts

80 months

[news] 
Monday 17th September 2012 quote quote all
AJS- said:
Both systems have their merits and their flaws
^ This, and whichever system is chosen needs to be consistent year on year. None of this grade inflation carry-on allowing governments to give themselves a big pat on the back for doing a wonderful job.

GCSE maths when I did it, late 80's, is off the scale compared to today's GCSE maths.

Murph7355

10,184 posts

136 months

[news] 
Monday 17th September 2012 quote quote all
AJS- said:
Both systems have their merits and their flaws, I think the important thing is to remember never to read too much into someone's academic qualifications. There are some thick people with blinding qualifications and some incredibly intelligent people with mediocre academic backgrounds.

There are also of course some incredibly intelligent people living on the breadline, and some people who seem thick as mince who are millionaires. GCSE, o-level or any other school leaving qualifications are a very poor indicator of future success in almost any endeavour.
I'm not disagreeing generally, but the scenarios you are noting are at extremes of the bell curve. I don't think it's possible to come up with an evaluation system that would capture these accurately and be admInisterable to the volumes of students passing through the system each year.

One would hope parents, teachers etc would be able to spot these extremes and filter them appropriately. But when we can't even do the meat of the bell curve properly, there's little hope.

Caulkhead

4,938 posts

37 months

[news] 
Monday 17th September 2012 quote quote all
TheHeretic said:
Caulkhead said:
'Working on projects' is ridiculous when every kid has google. It's just a test of their ability to search and then paraphrase.

A final test without recourse to the 'net will actually test retained knowledge and ability properly in a way that employers can rely on.
Because retained knowledge is surely the only way to measure intelligence... Isn't it?
Exams aren't a measure of intelligence, they are a test of your knowledge of a particular subject, thus your point is irrelevant.

Timmy35

9,201 posts

78 months

[news] 
Monday 17th September 2012 quote quote all
SeanyD said:
AJS- said:
Both systems have their merits and their flaws
^ This, and whichever system is chosen needs to be consistent year on year. None of this grade inflation carry-on allowing governments to give themselves a big pat on the back for doing a wonderful job.

GCSE maths when I did it, late 80's, is off the scale compared to today's GCSE maths.
+1

When I was at school I was the only one in my year, and certaily the only one for many years to get straight As at A-Level, fast forward 10 years of Labour Government and 25 of the same sized sixth form achieved the same. Now I'm not taking away from those kids....but I'm sorry we as a peer group were not that much worse, and they were certainly not that much better than we were.

Murph7355

10,184 posts

136 months

[news] 
Monday 17th September 2012 quote quote all
SeanyD said:
^ This, and whichever system is chosen needs to be consistent year on year. None of this grade inflation carry-on allowing governments to give themselves a big pat on the back for doing a wonderful job.

GCSE maths when I did it, late 80's, is off the scale compared to today's GCSE maths.
I'm not sure about the need for absolute consistency year on year, unless you are referring to levels of difficulty relative to what is typically "known".

We need to keep close tabs on those elements of knowledge that are progressing globally and increase pressure on our own standards accordingly.

Typically I'd expect exam questions to get harder over time as the content becomes widely understood and accepted. Unfortunately I'm not convinced out current systems do this. Quite the opposite.

Hooli

26,567 posts

80 months

[news] 
Monday 17th September 2012 quote quote all
Good news. I'd have done much better at my grades if it'd been all exams & no course work.

turbobloke

60,043 posts

140 months

[news] 
Monday 17th September 2012 quote quote all
TheHeretic said:
I agree. Working on 'projects' is what life is. Final tests it is not.
Nor is life getting your parents to do the coursework project for you, nor is it having four attempts at a job interview until you get it right, or paying for a tutor to come in and sit next to you while you do any work from your employer that had to be taken home.

Life is far more like an exam and far less like coursework - after poo-pooing final exams and on the spot tests, even that wet sap Jeremy Vine had to concede that removing the ability of middle class parents to do courswork would level up the playing field. Not least after it was indicated that he features in a TV show that puts kids on the spot exactly like that - not that I have any idea what it is as I haven't seen it.

The Govelevel will of course lead to lots of wailing and whining from the equality drones when girls don't do so well without ages and ages to do the work uber-conscientiously with multicoloured pens.

However as folks will have noted, the timescale agreed for the Govelevel means that it could be abolished in 2015 if and when Liarbore get in or share office incompetence with the Libdims. So, nothing at all will happen unless and until the Dave and Clegg Roadshow (or CMD / Boris) are in a position to see it through after the next general election.

otolith

23,827 posts

84 months

[news] 
Monday 17th September 2012 quote quote all
Timmy35 said:
When I was at school I was the only one in my year, and certaily the only one for many years to get straight As at A-Level, fast forward 10 years of Labour Government and 25 of the same sized sixth form achieved the same. Now I'm not taking away from those kids....but I'm sorry we as a peer group were not that much worse, and they were certainly not that much better than we were.
It wasn't that unusual when I sat mine back in 91-ish. I can certainly remember three or four others from my year who came away with three or four As at A-level, and that was a bog standard state sixth form college. I would imagine that there were private schools with many more of them.

Not as commonplace as now, though. It must make life hard for admissions tutors.

Murph7355

10,184 posts

136 months

[news] 
Monday 17th September 2012 quote quote all
Caulkhead said:
Exams aren't a measure of intelligence, they are a test of your knowledge of a particular subject, thus your point is irrelevant.
You do realise people rarely take one solitary subject?

Intelligence : capacity of mind, especially to understand principles, truths facts or meanings, acquire knowledge and apply it to practice, the ability to learn and comprehend.

An exam should be, if constructed properly, a very good measure of these things IMO.

Presumably a better measure of intelligence is being able to balance a ball on your nose whilst catching fish?

rover 623gsi

2,163 posts

41 months

[news] 
Monday 17th September 2012 quote quote all
turbobloke said:
Nor is life getting your parents to do the coursework project for you, nor is it having four attempts at a job interview until you get it right, or paying for a tutor to come in and sit next to you while you do any work from your employer that had to be taken home.

Life is far more like an exam and far less like coursework - after poo-pooing final exams and on the spot tests, even that wet sap Jeremy Vine had to concede that removing the ability of middle class parents to do courswork would level up the playing field. Not least after it was indicated that he features in a TV show that puts kids on the spot exactly like that - not that I have any idea what it is as I haven't seen it.

The Govelevel will of course lead to lots of wailing and whining from the equality drones when girls don't do so well without ages and ages to do the work uber-conscientiously with multicoloured pens.

However as folks will have noted, the timescale agreed for the Govelevel means that it could be abolished in 2015 if and when Liarbore get in or share office incompetence with the Libdims. So, nothing at all will happen unless and until the Dave and Clegg Roadshow (or CMD / Boris) are in a position to see it through after the next general election.
you can't get your parents to do your 'coursework' because kids nowadays do controlled assessments in class

you are allowed to have lots of attempts at many things in life - driving tests for example. Passing first time doesn't make you inherently better at something.

turbobloke

60,043 posts

140 months

[news] 
Monday 17th September 2012 quote quote all
rover 623gsi said:
turbobloke said:
Nor is life getting your parents to do the coursework project for you, nor is it having four attempts at a job interview until you get it right, or paying for a tutor to come in and sit next to you while you do any work from your employer that had to be taken home.

Life is far more like an exam and far less like coursework - after poo-pooing final exams and on the spot tests, even that wet sap Jeremy Vine had to concede that removing the ability of middle class parents to do courswork would level up the playing field. Not least after it was indicated that he features in a TV show that puts kids on the spot exactly like that - not that I have any idea what it is as I haven't seen it.

The Govelevel will of course lead to lots of wailing and whining from the equality drones when girls don't do so well without ages and ages to do the work uber-conscientiously with multicoloured pens.

However as folks will have noted, the timescale agreed for the Govelevel means that it could be abolished in 2015 if and when Liarbore get in or share office incompetence with the Libdims. So, nothing at all will happen unless and until the Dave and Clegg Roadshow (or CMD / Boris) are in a position to see it through after the next general election.
you can't get your parents to do your 'coursework' because kids nowadays do controlled assessments in class
A controlled assessment only has 2009 vintage at best and there were many abuses before that. Also isn't it same-old coursework in Eng Lang and Eng Lit?

rover 623gsi said:
you are allowed to have lots of attempts at many things in life - driving tests for example. Passing first time doesn't make you inherently better at something.
Yes I remember seeing that TV programme about the learner driver that took a lifetime to pass and had more tests than you could shake a pair of L plates at. Super driver, I'm sure.

It depends to a degree on what the test is measuring. If it's a test of basic competency assessed using criterion referencing then fine, almost. School examinations are more than that and taking n attempts (failing n-1 times along the way) does indeed say something about the candidate, not touchy feely but true as all cannot have prizes as it happens.
1
3 4 ... 8 9
Reply to Topic