GCSEs to end

Author
Discussion

rhinochopig

Original Poster:

17,932 posts

197 months

Monday 17th September 2012
quotequote all
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-19620075

What do people think of this. Essential the rumour is continuous assessment to be dropped in favour of a final exam.

Whilst I welcome the shake-up of the system, to replace continuous assessment with a final exam is bonkers. That's not how life works and clearly benefits some kids and is a huge disadvantage for others. My wife is great example of this. She has an almost photographic memory, which meant she could rote learn essays for a selection of questions based on past papers. She got A grades for everything and freely admits she didn't understand a lot of the subject matter.




Timmy35

12,915 posts

197 months

Monday 17th September 2012
quotequote all
rhinochopig said:
That's not how life works
Really? I've found quite the opposite, very often a one off pass or fail is exactly how life works. As for fairness, having 'involved' middle class parents to 'help' with coursework has if anything exacerbated the disadvantage faced by kids from less academic homes.

TheHeretic

73,668 posts

254 months

Monday 17th September 2012
quotequote all
I agree. Working on 'projects' is what life is. Final tests it is not. I await in 10 or 15 years declarations of "it wasn't like this with GCSEs!" hehe

fido

16,735 posts

254 months

Monday 17th September 2012
quotequote all
rhinochopig said:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-19620075
Whilst I welcome the shake-up of the system, to replace continuous assessment with a final exam is bonkers. That's not how life works and clearly benefits some kids and is a huge disadvantage for others. My wife is great example of this. She has an almost photographic memory, which meant she could rote learn essays for a selection of questions based on past papers. She got A grades for everything and freely admits she didn't understand a lot of the subject matter.
Agree, with the sentiment about 'rote learning' - i'm good at that sh8t as well. But the problem with coursework is that it has shown to be open to abuse [copying and teacher/parental assistance), not to mention the multiple retakes so that it's an incremental process akin to 'rote learning'. It's good that they now acknowledge that the GCSE system (lest not forget introduced by the Kenneth Baker under the Tories) is flawed and i think either a return to an O-Level system or the 'original' GCSE format would be an improvement. Edited to add: you can test understanding with 'open book' exams.

Edited by fido on Monday 17th September 14:40

btsidi

246 posts

230 months

Monday 17th September 2012
quotequote all
The existing GCSE system seems flawed to me, outside of the recent argument over the bandings.

How 70% odd of pupils can get a C or higher is beyond me - surely a "C" grade should be at the half way point, and attained by 50% of people taking the exam?

rhinochopig

Original Poster:

17,932 posts

197 months

Monday 17th September 2012
quotequote all
Timmy35 said:
rhinochopig said:
That's not how life works
Really? I've found quite the opposite, very often a one off pass or fail is exactly how life works. As for fairness, having 'involved' middle class parents to 'help' with coursework has if anything exacerbated the disadvantage faced by kids from less academic homes.
Not in my experience other than job interviews. As Heretic says life is generally full of projects with the end result being you fail or succeed. I do agree about the middle class parent 'helping' though. But then the middle class parent can also afford to send their kids off for a study school just prior to the exams as my wife benefited from so the advantage remains.

For someone like me who is mildly dyslexic and from a very working class background the ability to be continuously assessed was a godsend. In one a-level my course work was marked as an A grade (without any parental help whatsoever) whereas my exam transcript was marked at E; not because I didn't understand the subject matter but because I struggled to articulate what I wanted to say due to the dyslexia (and ste school)

My gripe with final exams - as they used to be - is that they generally test a child's ability to store information and not their understanding.

OllieC

3,816 posts

213 months

Monday 17th September 2012
quotequote all
btsidi said:
The existing GCSE system seems flawed to me, outside of the recent argument over the bandings.

How 70% odd of pupils can get a C or higher is beyond me - surely a "C" grade should be at the half way point, and attained by 50% of people taking the exam?
We cant have failure, heavens !

Adrian W

13,830 posts

227 months

Monday 17th September 2012
quotequote all
What is an O level style exam? when i was at school the thick kids took CSE's and the clever ones took O levels, the real issue is that some kids arnt ready at 15, I wasn't

rhinochopig

Original Poster:

17,932 posts

197 months

Monday 17th September 2012
quotequote all
fido said:
rhinochopig said:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-19620075
Whilst I welcome the shake-up of the system, to replace continuous assessment with a final exam is bonkers. That's not how life works and clearly benefits some kids and is a huge disadvantage for others. My wife is great example of this. She has an almost photographic memory, which meant she could rote learn essays for a selection of questions based on past papers. She got A grades for everything and freely admits she didn't understand a lot of the subject matter.
Agree, with the sentiment about 'rote learning' - i'm good at that sh8t as well. But the problem with coursework is that it has shown to be open to abuse [copying and teacher/parental assistance), not to mention the multiple retakes so that it's an incremental process akin to 'rote learning'. It's good that they now acknowledge that the GCSE system (lest not forget introduced by the Kenneth Baker under the Tories) is flawed and i think either a return to an O-Level system or the 'original' GCSE format would be an improvement.
I do agree that the current system needs a shake-up and it is open to abuse, but my worry is the political tendency to knee-jerk scrap something in its entirety rather than carefully assess what works and what doesn't and keep the bits that work.

Assessing several years of learning in a single three hour exam is as bad as the current system for multiple reasons. Psychologist have said for years that the maximum time someone can concentrate fully for is less than one hour. It was one of ironies of degree level psychology, that you may be asked that as a question during your three hour exam.

elster

17,517 posts

209 months

Monday 17th September 2012
quotequote all
btsidi said:
The existing GCSE system seems flawed to me, outside of the recent argument over the bandings.

How 70% odd of pupils can get a C or higher is beyond me - surely a "C" grade should be at the half way point, and attained by 50% of people taking the exam?
This is how it used to be. Now, technically everyone could get A/B.

They should go back to the banding of grades. So only the Top 5% get A* and 10% get A.

This would be the only way to fairly judge who got what.

Caulkhead

4,938 posts

156 months

Monday 17th September 2012
quotequote all
'Working on projects' is ridiculous when every kid has google. It's just a test of their ability to search and then paraphrase.

A final test without recourse to the 'net will actually test retained knowledge and ability properly in a way that employers can rely on.

Otispunkmeyer

12,541 posts

154 months

Monday 17th September 2012
quotequote all
fido said:
rhinochopig said:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-19620075
Whilst I welcome the shake-up of the system, to replace continuous assessment with a final exam is bonkers. That's not how life works and clearly benefits some kids and is a huge disadvantage for others. My wife is great example of this. She has an almost photographic memory, which meant she could rote learn essays for a selection of questions based on past papers. She got A grades for everything and freely admits she didn't understand a lot of the subject matter.
Agree, with the sentiment about 'rote learning' - i'm good at that sh8t as well. But the problem with coursework is that it has shown to be open to abuse [copying and teacher/parental assistance), not to mention the multiple retakes so that it's an incremental process akin to 'rote learning'. It's good that they now acknowledge that the GCSE system (lest not forget introduced by the Kenneth Baker under the Tories) is flawed and i think either a return to an O-Level system or the 'original' GCSE format would be an improvement. Edited to add: you can test understanding with 'open book' exams.

Edited by fido on Monday 17th September 14:40
Think I have only ever done two open book exams. One written, one viva style and I have to say they were the two hardest exams I have done. Now the subject matter was Turbo-machinery, which does have its moments in being completely bewildering, but the overall impression is if it is open book, then you had better understand your st because the questions are going to be far far harder than a normal exam. After all there is no excuse when the answers are in the books/notes.

Everyone thinks oooo open book exam, easy. NOT! If you don't understand the subject you won't even know where to begin looking in your notes/books and the abundance of information just exasperates the problem!

okgo

37,708 posts

197 months

Monday 17th September 2012
quotequote all
It doesn't really matter what they do does it?

They're just a metric for getting to the next stage, which is just a metric for university, which is just a metric for how good a grad scheme you can get on?

Make it easier or harder, whatever, just make it measurable, the last thing we need is 95% of people being bloody geniuses on paper, because they're not.

It needs to be banded as said above, the weak need to be weeded out so they don't clog up a place a truly intelligent person could take.

nadger

1,411 posts

139 months

Monday 17th September 2012
quotequote all
fido said:
..But the problem with coursework is that it has shown to be open to abuse [copying and teacher/parental assistance), not to mention the multiple retakes so that it's an incremental process akin to 'rote learning'. It's good that they now acknowledge that the GCSE system (lest not forget introduced by the Kenneth Baker under the Tories) is flawed and i think either a return to an O-Level system or the 'original' GCSE format would be an improvement. Edited to add: you can test understanding with 'open book' exams.

Edited by fido on Monday 17th September 14:40
The issues with the coursework have been resolved for a couple of years by introducing controlled assessments. In other words it's coursework which has to be completed in a set time frmae (8hrs for History) and all in school (no taking it home for mum/dad to review)

These changes are also rather old news! The exam boards told us all about this over a year ago (the return to a final exam!). I told all my year 10 students this information at the start of term two weeks ago!

nadger

1,411 posts

139 months

Monday 17th September 2012
quotequote all
OllieC said:
We cant have failure, heavens !
This is a common misconception. At GCSE level, the only grade that is a 'fail' is a U, every other grade is a pass. (OK there is an X as well, but you have to fail to turn up for the exam/write your name on the paper to get that!)

TheHeretic

73,668 posts

254 months

Monday 17th September 2012
quotequote all
Caulkhead said:
'Working on projects' is ridiculous when every kid has google. It's just a test of their ability to search and then paraphrase.

A final test without recourse to the 'net will actually test retained knowledge and ability properly in a way that employers can rely on.
Because retained knowledge is surely the only way to measure intelligence... Isn't it?

Timmy35

12,915 posts

197 months

Monday 17th September 2012
quotequote all
Caulkhead said:
'Working on projects' is ridiculous when every kid has google. It's just a test of their ability to search and then paraphrase.

A final test without recourse to the 'net will actually test retained knowledge and ability properly in a way that employers can rely on.
+1

In my view these exams are there to assess intelligence. And IMO the only level playing field for that is under exam conditions. You'll note that most professional bodies, accountants, lawyers, doctors all take the same view.

davepoth

29,395 posts

198 months

Monday 17th September 2012
quotequote all
BBC News is reporting it will be called the "English Baccalaureate" or E BAC for short.


OllieC

3,816 posts

213 months

Monday 17th September 2012
quotequote all
nadger said:
OllieC said:
We cant have failure, heavens !
This is a common misconception. At GCSE level, the only grade that is a 'fail' is a U, every other grade is a pass. (OK there is an X as well, but you have to fail to turn up for the exam/write your name on the paper to get that!)
I didn't know that, but it kind of proves my point !

Murph7355

37,596 posts

255 months

Monday 17th September 2012
quotequote all
Something more sophisticated is needed than a one size fits all.

- some subjects lend themselves to a final exam to exhibit understanding (assuming papers cannot be "learned" from past examples). Typically "academic" subjects.
- some are better assessed over time. Typically "vocational"/"arts" type subjects.

IMO qualifications need to take different paths depending on the best way to demonstrate skill at them. Call them the same thing by all means (O levels, GCSEs etc). But assess ability according to the subject.

More importantly kids need to be given assistance in choosing which direction is best for them. And we must avoid falling into the "all must have prizes" habit again. We need to be judging our kids internationally, not just nationally. Kids should be encouraged to achieve, and as a country we need to be lifting our arses up the table where education is concerned. This will be the only benchmark that really matters.

But by the same token we need to be supporting those kids for who qualifications may not be the be all and end all. We can't all be Einstein in the same way we can't all be Usain Bolt. Understanding this is a key part of growing up that seems to be left until post-uni these days, fostering a sense of entitlement IMO.