Why does everyone hate teachers?

Why does everyone hate teachers?

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Discussion

ClaphamGT3

11,269 posts

242 months

Wednesday 5th August 2015
quotequote all
Countdown said:
Megaflow said:
I don't disagree teaching is hard, but they have ever left a education environment to experience how brutally hard the real world can be.
In my experience, yes, there are a few of those who have lead fairly cloistered lives. OTOH there are more than a few who have a good understanding of the real world, either through their partners, or because they were employed in other fields before retraining to become teachers.

Unfair to tar them all with the same brush.
I think you simplify the divide between teaching and 'the real world'.

How many of us, in our 'real world' jobs are on the frontline of issues such as female genital mutilation, Islamic radicalisation of children, human trafficking and knife/gun crime?

I pick these topics as I happen to know that they are on the daily agenda of the head-teacher of an inner London primary school where I am a Governor.

Otispunkmeyer

12,558 posts

154 months

Wednesday 5th August 2015
quotequote all
Pan Pan Pan said:
Munter said:
I don't think teaching is easy. I do think 90% of the teachers I had were st at it
though. And I don't expect the selection process has improved to attract different people.


Yes, I whole heartedly agree with your comment. But I guess like in any walk of life, or occupation you get the good (sometimes excellent) the average, and down right dangerous.

Edited by Pan Pan Pan on Wednesday 5th August 08:26
I think some of the problem of st teachers is those people who use the profession as their last chance saloon. I can count a pretty good number of people who post messages on FB that I end up seeing whereby they're discussing jobs. You can follow the trail of interviewing at X, failing, interviewing at Y, failing and on and on, often with the comment "If I don't get this job, think I'll just do a PGCE" or "As a last resort I can always go and teach I guess".


Granted, some of those, once they get there might find that A) they like it and B) they're good at it. But honestly, a good candidate for a teacher probably shouldn't be someone who's primary interest in the job was avoiding the dole queue (as admirable as that is). You want people who are genuinely interested in the role.

Equally, you don't also want teachers whose only life experience thus far has been being taught themselves and going to uni. The best teachers I have ever had have always been those who turned to it a bit later in life having worked in a different industry.

turbobloke

103,747 posts

259 months

Wednesday 5th August 2015
quotequote all
Johnnytheboy said:
Esseesse said:
Do people hate teachers or do they generally dislike whiners in unions?
The latter in my case.
And others too I suspect.

As to the teacher's lot, it's all known at sign-up.

Don't like-don't train-don't apply.

anonymous-user

53 months

Wednesday 5th August 2015
quotequote all
ClaphamGT3 said:
Countdown said:
Megaflow said:
I don't disagree teaching is hard, but they have ever left a education environment to experience how brutally hard the real world can be.
In my experience, yes, there are a few of those who have lead fairly cloistered lives. OTOH there are more than a few who have a good understanding of the real world, either through their partners, or because they were employed in other fields before retraining to become teachers.

Unfair to tar them all with the same brush.
I think you simplify the divide between teaching and 'the real world'.

How many of us, in our 'real world' jobs are on the frontline of issues such as female genital mutilation, Islamic radicalisation of children, human trafficking and knife/gun crime?

I pick these topics as I happen to know that they are on the daily agenda of the head-teacher of an inner London primary school where I am a Governor.
O/T but in that case it would be the last place I would think about sending my kids to school.

Pan Pan Pan

9,777 posts

110 months

Wednesday 5th August 2015
quotequote all
Otispunkmeyer said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
Munter said:
I don't think teaching is easy. I do think 90% of the teachers I had were st at it
though. And I don't expect the selection process has improved to attract different people.


Yes, I whole heartedly agree with your comment. But I guess like in any walk of life, or occupation you get the good (sometimes excellent) the average, and down right dangerous.

Edited by Pan Pan Pan on Wednesday 5th August 08:26
I think some of the problem of st teachers is those people who use the profession as their last chance saloon. I can count a pretty good number of people who post messages on FB that I end up seeing whereby they're discussing jobs. You can follow the trail of interviewing at X, failing, interviewing at Y, failing and on and on, often with the comment "If I don't get this job, think I'll just do a PGCE" or "As a last resort I can always go and teach I guess".


Granted, some of those, once they get there might find that A) they like it and B) they're good at it. But honestly, a good candidate for a teacher probably shouldn't be someone who's primary interest in the job was avoiding the dole queue (as admirable as that is). You want people who are genuinely interested in the role.

Equally, you don't also want teachers whose only life experience thus far has been being taught themselves and going to uni. The best teachers I have ever had have always been those who turned to it a bit later in life having worked in a different industry.
More often than not it was the school / University / teacher training / then back to school types who were the `problem?' teachers.
The ones who had had a grounding in the `outside' world were often the best.
Some who had remained in the education system entirely, were very intelligent, they could calculate the cubic capacity of a tin of beans in their head, they just didn't have a clue on how to open it!

rohrl

8,712 posts

144 months

Wednesday 5th August 2015
quotequote all
Pan Pan Pan said:
More often than not it was the school / University / teacher training / then back to school types who were the `problem?' teachers.
The ones who had had a grounding in the `outside' world were often the best.
Some who had remained in the education system entirely, were very intelligent, they could calculate the cubic capacity of a tin of beans in their head, they just didn't have a clue on how to open it!
I'd agree with that.

One of my Physics teachers had previously worked for Rolls-Royce at Filton and he had a wealth of real-life examples to back up his teaching. Similarly my A-level Chemistry teacher had spent a few years working in industry before going into teaching and his experience broadened the subject for him and for us.

Sheepshanks

32,540 posts

118 months

Wednesday 5th August 2015
quotequote all
tangerine_sedge said:
21TonyK said:
Add in the fact that teachers don't think they get paid a huge salary (compared to their peers outside education) and I can see there is a sense of "we work so hard and get paid crap" attitude some have.
But teachers don't get paid a huge salary. I was thinking of a career change and investigated teaching as an option (science & technology). The pay rate I would be starting on was about half my current salary. As much as I would enjoy the school holidays, I just couldn't afford to reduce my salary by so much.
The salary does go up pretty steadily for several years, but (and this was the point of the article linked to 3yrs ago when the thread started) too much of it already is about having a face that fits without putting pay totally into the Heads hands.

The holidays aren't all what you read in the Daily Mail - my teacher daughter is in school today and she's got to be there for the GCSE and A-level results weeks.

As for switching careers - the drop out rate is immense. People aren't so stupid as to believe it'll be 9 to 3.30 with 12 weeks holiday but the reality of the unrelenting intensity of the work overwhelms people who aren't used to it. That's why the school-uni-teaching career path works.


Mark Benson

7,498 posts

268 months

Wednesday 5th August 2015
quotequote all
turbobloke said:
Johnnytheboy said:
Esseesse said:
Do people hate teachers or do they generally dislike whiners in unions?
The latter in my case.
And others too I suspect.
This.

I have 3 good friends who are teachers, 2 are primary (one head) and one is head of department at a secondary school. None of them are 'union people' but all three are signed up to one of the teaching unions.

Why? Because if you don't, it's made very clear you may face difficult situations on your own - if a child makes an accusation, without a union behind you you're stuffed is the message.
So most teachers sign up, don't have any contact with their union but can be claimed as support for any militant decision the union's 'grown-up student' leadership want to implement.

Then all teachers are tarred with the same brush and parents worry that their children are being taught by 'Student Grant' types and having their heads filled with juvenile politics when in fact, on the whole this is not the case.

Edited by Mark Benson on Wednesday 5th August 11:50

SpeedMattersNot

4,506 posts

195 months

Wednesday 5th August 2015
quotequote all
I don't think there is any definitive recipe for what makes a good teacher. It depends on a lot of things and whether they've worked in the private sector or not, is just one of them.

One of my worst lecturers at Uni had by far the most 'industry' experience, but he couldn't teach at all!

Oakey

27,524 posts

215 months

Wednesday 5th August 2015
quotequote all
REALIST123 said:
Well, apparently you didn't have much of a relationship with your English teacher......
Or perhaps it's a reflection of the quality of education he received from his English teacher?

Hoofy

76,253 posts

281 months

Wednesday 5th August 2015
quotequote all
21TonyK said:
Hoofy said:
Dunno about this knocking off at 3pm business. I work in schools (not as a teacher - fk that) and I don't see teachers disappear as soon as it hits 3pm. Many of them are there doing stuff until 5pm and then they take work home to mark etc.
And I think this is part of the problem. Teachers are paid for 32.5 hours a week but all the ones I know do more than that, some a little, some a lot.

I suspect most people would also have a moan about working and not being paid for it.
Yep. An ex who worked in a secondary school used to get to work about 8am and work up to 8pm at home marking books.

Pan Pan Pan

9,777 posts

110 months

Wednesday 5th August 2015
quotequote all
Mark Benson said:
turbobloke said:
Johnnytheboy said:
Esseesse said:
Do people hate teachers or do they generally dislike whiners in unions?
The latter in my case.
And others too I suspect.
This.

I have 3 good friends who are teachers, 2 are primary (one head) and one is head of department at a secondary school. None of them are 'union people' but all three are signed up to one of the teaching unions.

Why? Because if you don't, it's made very clear you may face difficult situations on your own - if a child makes an accusation, without a union behind you you're stuffed is the message.
So most teachers sign up, don't have any contact with their union but can be claimed as support for any militant decision the union's 'grown-up student' leadership want to implement.

Then all teachers are tarred with the same brush and parents worry that their children are being taught by 'Student Grant' types and having their heads filled with juvenile politics when in fact, on the whole this is not the case.

Edited by Mark Benson on Wednesday 5th August 11:50

Regrettably It doesn't have to be just children, When I did teacher training many years ago, we had a tutor who was of the pinko persuasion who tried to give the group I was in (which included, nurses,
business people, and other adults seeking a change of occupation) a load of left wing b*llocks,
everyone in the group, started disagreeing with what the tutor was saying, to the extent the tutor slammed all her books and papers together, and stormed out of the room smile
We had a great lunch break that day smile

ClaphamGT3

11,269 posts

242 months

Wednesday 5th August 2015
quotequote all
OpulentBob said:
ClaphamGT3 said:
Countdown said:
Megaflow said:
I don't disagree teaching is hard, but they have ever left a education environment to experience how brutally hard the real world can be.
In my experience, yes, there are a few of those who have lead fairly cloistered lives. OTOH there are more than a few who have a good understanding of the real world, either through their partners, or because they were employed in other fields before retraining to become teachers.

Unfair to tar them all with the same brush.
I think you simplify the divide between teaching and 'the real world'.

How many of us, in our 'real world' jobs are on the frontline of issues such as female genital mutilation, Islamic radicalisation of children, human trafficking and knife/gun crime?

I pick these topics as I happen to know that they are on the daily agenda of the head-teacher of an inner London primary school where I am a Governor.
O/T but in that case it would be the last place I would think about sending my kids to school.
I'm not a parent governor; my children are not pupils there

Zoon

6,654 posts

120 months

Wednesday 5th August 2015
quotequote all
ClaphamGT3 said:
I think you simplify the divide between teaching and 'the real world'.

How many of us, in our 'real world' jobs are on the frontline of issues such as female genital mutilation, Islamic radicalisation of children, human trafficking and knife/gun crime?

I pick these topics as I happen to know that they are on the daily agenda of the head-teacher of an inner London primary school where I am a Governor.
Quite ironic that arguably 3/4 or 4/4 of the problems listed wouldn't have been an issue 40 years ago.
How times have changed.

CubanPete

3,630 posts

187 months

Wednesday 5th August 2015
quotequote all
Ray Luxury-Yacht said:
Blimey.



All I know is that he leaves the house at 8am and I rarely see him return much before half 6. So that blows the 'short days' argument right out of the water for a start.
Bit like my hours then, and most of my friends hours, only shorter...

ATG

20,485 posts

271 months

Wednesday 5th August 2015
quotequote all
Proof of the pudding is in the eating. The terms and conditions are correctly set for a job role if the rate of suitable applicants matches the rate at which vacancies arise. So when the police, fire brigade or tube drivers union reps say the pay and conditions are dreadful, ask yourself why there's a huge list of people still applying for those jobs? Now compare that to teaching. Is there a huge shortage of Physics and Maths teachers. Yes. So what do we conclude about the terms and conditions?

turbobloke

103,747 posts

259 months

Wednesday 5th August 2015
quotequote all
ATG said:
Proof of the pudding is in the eating. The terms and conditions are correctly set for a job role if the rate of suitable applicants matches the rate at which vacancies arise. So when the police, fire brigade or tube drivers union reps say the pay and conditions are dreadful, ask yourself why there's a huge list of people still applying for those jobs? Now compare that to teaching. Is there a huge shortage of Physics and Maths teachers. Yes. So what do we conclude about the terms and conditions?
That they don't differentiate sufficiently between teachers of underwater basketweaving and teachers of maths and physics?

Johnnytheboy

24,498 posts

185 months

Wednesday 5th August 2015
quotequote all
CubanPete said:
Ray Luxury-Yacht said:
Blimey.



All I know is that he leaves the house at 8am and I rarely see him return much before half 6. So that blows the 'short days' argument right out of the water for a start.
Bit like my hours then, and most of my friends hours, only shorter...
Bit like anyone on a half decent salary.

And me frown

jjlynn27

7,935 posts

108 months

Wednesday 5th August 2015
quotequote all
It seems that lot of people are convinced that teaching is quite an easy job with great benefits. If so, why not apply to be one? Seems that there are quite a few job opportunities, and it's not like it's a closed shop. I personally wouldn't do the job for twice the money.

turbobloke

103,747 posts

259 months

Wednesday 5th August 2015
quotequote all
jjlynn27 said:
It seems that lot of people are convinced that teaching is quite an easy job with great benefits. If so, why not apply to be one? Seems that there are quite a few job opportunities, and it's not like it's a closed shop. I personally wouldn't do the job for twice the money.
In the state sector non-academy context they would need QTS first so satisfying the criteria and managing that time would rule a lot of people out of what is not only mostly a graduate-QTS profession but one that's moving to graduate-QTS-masters profession.

Good maths and physics grads can command decent money and terms elsewhere. That is after all why these are two teacher shortage areas.