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zcacogp

10,847 posts

127 months

[news] 
Sunday 7th October 2012 quote quote all
Breadvan72 said:
... I don't do crime and so the only scumbags that I have to represent are HMG.
scratchchin Hmmm, tautologous statement, perhaps Breadvan?


Oli.

Breadvan72

17,624 posts

46 months

[news] 
Sunday 7th October 2012 quote quote all
Tautological? I don't think so, although there is an oxymoronic element in saying that I don't do crime but act for HMG!

Vipers

18,756 posts

111 months

[news] 
Sunday 7th October 2012 quote quote all
Laurel Green said:
Vipers said:
Hopefully the American legal system wont pussy foot around like we did, and sort it quickly, unless he is totally innocent of all the alegations of course biggrin




smile
I'm sure, given a week or two, he will be found dead in his cell - verdict, self strangulation.
Dear oh dear, I will be gutted biggrin. In hindsight we should have told him to sling his hook years ago......




smile

TopOnePercent

427 posts

43 months

[news] 
Sunday 7th October 2012 quote quote all
Marf said:
Well on the basis he's judging all solicitors to be scum, I guess it's safe to assume that TopOnePercent is a knuckle dragging tattoo'd no-necked skin headed burbery clad staffy owning charver because he drives a WRX?
Staffys rock!! ;-)

TopOnePercent

427 posts

43 months

[news] 
Sunday 7th October 2012 quote quote all
The various members of the legal 'profession' who've crawled out of the wood work to justify working for terrorists, sex offenders etc really need a wake up call.

"Its the law" is no defence to morally unjustifiable actions. "I was only obeying orders" is from the same school of thought.

Nobody called to defend Abu Hamza could have been in any doubt about his guilt - he's been tried and convicted of terror offences in more than one country. Choosing to work for such people is reprehensible and immoral.

The law was created to prevent people sending the boys round to obtain natural justice. Its only reason to exist is the provision of justice, yet I know of nobody outside of the legal 'profession' that believe it has provided them any such thing.

There's no justice in Hamza having been able to cling to the skirt hems of a country he'd seek to destroy, while squealing about the application of the law - all in an attempt to avoid justice. For 8 years.

That the legal profession can't see their complicity in what has been a burning injustice makes clear the need for it to be reformed or abolished. Reform of the law is long overdue, and the first step must be a careful consideration of the kind of people we want working within it.


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Breadvan72

17,624 posts

46 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
Here are some serious questions for you, Top One Per Cent.

At what point must a lawyer decline to represent someone?

Hamza was convicted of offences in the UK and sentenced for those offences. He is now accused of further offences, of which he may be guilty, but he has not yet been convicted of those. Must he have no representation, because he has unpleasant views and a bad reputation?

Two lawyers in New York have been appointed to defend him. Are they really acting in a manner comparable to an SS guard at Dachau? Staying with Nuremberg analogies for the moment, should the Nazi Defendants simply have been hanged without trial, or not allowed to be represented?

Mark Bridger is accused of murdering a child. He may be guilty, but we don't know if he is. Must he be unrepresented because he is accused of a particularly unpleasant crime?

Due process is a bulwark of a civilised society. Do we only allow due process to people we approve of?

I happen to agree that some (not all) of the lawyers who act for alleged terrorists play the system, and they may do so for cynical reasons associated either with ideology or with money, but does abuse of a system invalidate the system?

Imagine that you were falsely accused of a heinous crime. It does happen - look at the landlord of Jo Yeates, or the chap whose DNA was confused with that of a rapist. Who would you turn to, to assist you through the trial process?

Edited by Breadvan72 on Tuesday 9th October 04:16

Breadvan72

17,624 posts

46 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
PS: After the questions, a few thoughts.

People like Hamza hate our way of life and want to destroy it.

One method that they use in an attempt to achieve this aim is to make us hate our own way of life, Therefore, by cynically abusing legal processes, freedom of speech, and democracy itself, they turn us against our own institutions and values. Hamza, I suggest, would applaud your views, because they accord with his, and because adoption of them furthers his purpose.

Our system and values are objectively better than what is offered by the Islamofascists, and are worth defending.

Rod Liddle, no softie he, put the point well in the Sunday Times yesterday.


Link, but subscription required:

http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/comment/column...

Scuffers

13,237 posts

157 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
Breadvan72 said:
Here are sone serious questions for you, Top One Per Cent.

At what point must a lawyer decline to represent someone?
kind of missing the point though....

it's one thing to represent your client to the best of your abilities - and yes, everybody should be entitled to a defence, it's another when said defence is basically going down the route of abusing every process in the book to drag it out as long as possible (and some would say for their own financial and professional gain).

in this case, it's been very clear for some time that legally, he was to be deported, all that's been going on for the last few years is stall tactics, which at the end of the day have not only cost this country in monetary terms, but also shown up our legal system to be somewhat shambolic.

I would love to understand the position of his legal rep? she is said to be fiercely private, I wonder how she would feel if she lived next door to her client she so desperately wanted to keep in the country?

I would suggest this is more about her need to champion what she see's as injustices in our/the US's systems than Abu Hamza himself, to the point of being some kind of crusader against it, the real question is what exactly it is and just how blinkered do you have to be not to see/understand the issues you are creating?

I would suggest 50 years ago, this just would not have happened, I guess that's what you call progress?

zcacogp

10,847 posts

127 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
Breadvan72 said:
People like Hamza hate our way of life and want to destroy it.

One method that they use in an attempt to achieve this aim is to make us hate our own way of life, Therefore, by cynically abusing legal processes, freedom of speech, and democracy itself, they turn us against our own institutions and values. Hamza, I suggest, would applaud your views, because they accord with his, and because adoption of them furthers his purpose.
While this may be true, I don't believe Hamza had an intent of this - it's too sophisticated for him to have foreseen. I'd suggest he has simply made a nuisance of himself, using the increasingly-popular tagline of 'Islam' to justify his actions. His coterie of supporters are possibly even less intelligent than Hamza and see him as legitimising the unpleasant, anti-social behaviour they indulge in and the 'Islam' tag is protective of them.


Oli.

Breadvan72

17,624 posts

46 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
There's a lot of truth in that, but Hamza may be encouraged by more sophisticated operators to wage a campaign of harassment and delay.

Look at what Choudhury does: he announces that he will march through Wootton Bassett, and then cancels at the last minute He does this to inflame the public and reduce tolerance. Like most revolutionaries, he wants things to get worse, so that they can get (in his twisted view) better.

I am glad that Hamza lost his ECHR challenge (which is what caused most of the delay), but it wasn't perhaps a stone cold no hoper - the detention conditions in the Supermax jails might raise an arguable issue about cruel and unusual punishment. I would have preferred our Supreme Court to have the final word on that. Last week's challenge was indeed a pish take, but, as I predicted, it was slung out very easily and quickly.

I think that Gareth Pierce is a diehard campaigner against what she sees as the authoritarian State. I am not a fan.

Edited by Breadvan72 on Monday 8th October 09:24

REALIST123

3,372 posts

36 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
zcacogp said:
Breadvan72 said:
People like Hamza hate our way of life and want to destroy it.

One method that they use in an attempt to achieve this aim is to make us hate our own way of life, Therefore, by cynically abusing legal processes, freedom of speech, and democracy itself, they turn us against our own institutions and values. Hamza, I suggest, would applaud your views, because they accord with his, and because adoption of them furthers his purpose.
While this may be true, I don't believe Hamza had an intent of this - it's too sophisticated for him to have foreseen. I'd suggest he has simply made a nuisance of himself, using the increasingly-popular tagline of 'Islam' to justify his actions. His coterie of supporters are possibly even less intelligent than Hamza and see him as legitimising the unpleasant, anti-social behaviour they indulge in and the 'Islam' tag is protective of them.


Oli.
I would think you are almost certainly correct.

Breadvan's argument is an old one, similar to the burglar alarm sales rep reeling off uncheckable statistics to frighten one into buying, used to perpetuate the self serving system that Politicians and Lawyers have milked for many years.


Scuffers

13,237 posts

157 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
I am sure the US's superMAX prisons are not fun places, but having your citizens blown apart on an almost daily basis is not best fun either.

if you turn the tables on this, ask what conditions Terry Waite was kept in? and he was not guilty of doing anything remotely anti-social.

my point is that if he was a US citizen who did what he did in an islamic state, how many seconds do you think his life expectancy would have been? I would suggest that on these terms, a superMax prison is pretty good.

Breadvan72

17,624 posts

46 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
My professional life would be a lot easier if people like Hamza did not have safeguards available to them, but they do, and I think that they should, even though his interests are adverse to those of my client Brenda.

I reiterate that I do think that Hamza abused the system, and I am critical of his lawyers for aiding him, but I don't go so far as to say that he should have had no process, and no representation, and we have to recall that he is not yet convicted of the charges made against him in the US. He may well be convicted, and I won't be sorry if he gets a stiff sentence.

I do not oppose Supermax prisons. I do oppose doing whatever our enemies do because they do it to us. One reason why we deserve to win (and I think we will win) is that we are better than they are.

Soovy

32,921 posts

154 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
REALIST123 said:
zcacogp said:
Breadvan72 said:
People like Hamza hate our way of life and want to destroy it.

One method that they use in an attempt to achieve this aim is to make us hate our own way of life, Therefore, by cynically abusing legal processes, freedom of speech, and democracy itself, they turn us against our own institutions and values. Hamza, I suggest, would applaud your views, because they accord with his, and because adoption of them furthers his purpose.
While this may be true, I don't believe Hamza had an intent of this - it's too sophisticated for him to have foreseen. I'd suggest he has simply made a nuisance of himself, using the increasingly-popular tagline of 'Islam' to justify his actions. His coterie of supporters are possibly even less intelligent than Hamza and see him as legitimising the unpleasant, anti-social behaviour they indulge in and the 'Islam' tag is protective of them.


Oli.
I would think you are almost certainly correct.

Breadvan's argument is an old one, similar to the burglar alarm sales rep reeling off uncheckable statistics to frighten one into buying, used to perpetuate the self serving system that Politicians and Lawyers have milked for many years.
Oh come off it.

Spoken in the manner of the sort of person who is the first to come crying to a chambers run by some like Breadvan or me when things go wrong for them.


Breadvan72

17,624 posts

46 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
I often wonder whether those most critical here of the legal system have had much personal interaction with it, or have met many lawyers or Judges. Taking views of the system from the popular media can be distorting. The system is far from perfect, but compares well with what I have seen in Europe and elsewhere.

Of course, there are plenty of lawyers who are tosspots, but a fair few who aren't. Naturally, I strive for tosspottery in all that I do, but I sometimes fall short and do something useful by accident.

drivin_me_nuts

15,795 posts

94 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
Breadvan72 said:
I often wonder whether those most critical here of the legal system have had much personal interaction with it, or have met many lawyers or Judges. Taking views of the system from the popular media can be distorting. The system is far from perfect, but compares well with what I have seen in Europe and elsewhere.

Of course, there are plenty of lawyers who are tosspots, but a fair few who aren't. Naturally, I strive for tosspottery in all that I do, but I sometimes fall short and do something useful by accident.
I hope you don't mind me asking, but can a Lawyer or Barrister refuse to take a case for personal reasons, such as an intense personal dislike of a client or their beliefs.

Soovy

32,921 posts

154 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
drivin_me_nuts said:
Breadvan72 said:
I often wonder whether those most critical here of the legal system have had much personal interaction with it, or have met many lawyers or Judges. Taking views of the system from the popular media can be distorting. The system is far from perfect, but compares well with what I have seen in Europe and elsewhere.

Of course, there are plenty of lawyers who are tosspots, but a fair few who aren't. Naturally, I strive for tosspottery in all that I do, but I sometimes fall short and do something useful by accident.
I hope you don't mind me asking, but can a Lawyer or Barrister refuse to take a case for personal reasons, such as an intense personal dislike of a client or their beliefs.
Cabb Rank Rule. Google it!!

Answer is not really.........


Digga

13,280 posts

166 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
Breadvan72 said:
I am glad that Hamza lost his ECHR challenge (which is what caused most of the delay), but it wasn't perhaps a stone cold no hoper
Listening to Theresa May over the weekend, there was a suggestion that the ECHR might - had it been asked - given the nature of this particualr case, have granted fast-track status. Is this correct and if so who's cock-up is it that the case was so protracted?

drivin_me_nuts

15,795 posts

94 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
Soovy said:
Cabb Rank Rule. Google it!!

Answer is not really.........
Thanks.

superlightr

6,921 posts

146 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
Breadvan72 said:
Of course, there are plenty of lawyers who are tosspots, but a fair few who aren't. Naturally, I strive for tosspottery in all that I do, but I sometimes fall short and do something useful by accident.
wife and I both used to be lawyers of various tosspottery, now we have 3 children and are pleased to say they are also learning the ways of tosspots although not quite as cunning and unskilled as the old tossposts yet.

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