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Breadvan72

19,898 posts

50 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
Solicitors can choose, but bazzers are supposed to do the cab rank thing.


Fast tracking in Strasbourg is not very common. The UK wins almost all of its cases there, but they take too long.

zcacogp

11,047 posts

131 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
Breadvan72 said:
There's a lot of truth in that, but Hamza may be encouraged by more sophisticated operators to wage a campaign of harassment and delay.
Now that IS an interesting angle which I had (naively) not considered. Was (/is) Hamza simply the public puppet of a more intelligent bunch of people? It would make sense; Hamza wasn't very bright (a common theme amongst Islamic extremists, particularly suicide bombers) and it makes sense, if you are intelligent and want to cause a load of problems, to employ someone as your 'blunt instrument' and keep the public gaze off you. And it has the added bonus that the intelligent ones don't take the fall when the ECHR finally allows someone to be deported to somewhere not very nice.

(Or am I just getting far to conspiracy theorist about all this?)


Oli.

Apache

38,929 posts

171 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
Breadvan72 said:
My professional life would be a lot easier if people like Hamza did not have safeguards available to them, but they do, and I think that they should, even though his interests are adverse to those of my client Brenda.

I reiterate that I do think that Hamza abused the system, and I am critical of his lawyers for aiding him, but I don't go so far as to say that he should have had no process, and no representation, and we have to recall that he is not yet convicted of the charges made against him in the US. He may well be convicted, and I won't be sorry if he gets a stiff sentence.

I do not oppose Supermax prisons. I do oppose doing whatever our enemies do because they do it to us. One reason why we deserve to win (and I think we will win) is that we are better than they are.
Would I be correct in saying that the lengths exhausted by Hamza's legal team mean that the next terrorist or hate filled scumbucket will just go straight to wherever he came from or wants him?

drivin_me_nuts

16,050 posts

98 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
zcacogp said:
Now that IS an interesting angle which I had (naively) not considered. Was (/is) Hamza simply the public puppet of a more intelligent bunch of people? It would make sense; Hamza wasn't very bright (a common theme amongst Islamic extremists, particularly suicide bombers) and it makes sense, if you are intelligent and want to cause a load of problems, to employ someone as your 'blunt instrument' and keep the public gaze off you. And it has the added bonus that the intelligent ones don't take the fall when the ECHR finally allows someone to be deported to somewhere not very nice.

(Or am I just getting far to conspiracy theorist about all this?)


Oli.
You are not alone in that thought. I have wondered on occasion if he was indeed 'groomed' by peoples with a bit more smarts about them. Hamza strikes me of having the intelligence of a slightly retarded Cuttlefish, but he has made a powerful statement in so far as 'if thicko hooky can string them along ...'

Soovy

33,333 posts

158 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
Apache said:
Breadvan72 said:
My professional life would be a lot easier if people like Hamza did not have safeguards available to them, but they do, and I think that they should, even though his interests are adverse to those of my client Brenda.

I reiterate that I do think that Hamza abused the system, and I am critical of his lawyers for aiding him, but I don't go so far as to say that he should have had no process, and no representation, and we have to recall that he is not yet convicted of the charges made against him in the US. He may well be convicted, and I won't be sorry if he gets a stiff sentence.

I do not oppose Supermax prisons. I do oppose doing whatever our enemies do because they do it to us. One reason why we deserve to win (and I think we will win) is that we are better than they are.
Would I be correct in saying that the lengths exhausted by Hamza's legal team mean that the next terrorist or hate filled scumbucket will just go straight to wherever he came from or wants him?
No.

They'll have the same rights of appeal, although one suspects that Madge might have had a word and things will move along somewhat more expeditiously.

I can quite imagine that the Judge on decision day last week got a call on the morning of the decision.

Judge's wife said:
I've got HM The Queen on the phone, dear. Something about today's case.........
hehe

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Breadvan72

19,898 posts

50 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
I do not believe that there is an over arching Al Qeda conspiracy against us. I think there are many disparate group of nutters, some more effective and dangerous than others. Hamza might, however, be steered along by cleverer people. He was probably at least shrewd enough to see that playing the system would pish us all off.

Qatada seems a bit cleverer than Hamza. OBL himself was reputedly no slouch, and the guys who did 911 were pretty switched on, in a very bad cause. Contrary to urban myth, they included licensed commercial pilots. The problem for the beardo-nutters is that the best teams in that game can only be deployed once.

James P

2,376 posts

124 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
Breadvan72 said:
I often wonder whether those most critical here of the legal system have had much personal interaction with it, or have met many lawyers or Judges. Taking views of the system from the popular media can be distorting. The system is far from perfect, but compares well with what I have seen in Europe and elsewhere.

Of course, there are plenty of lawyers who are tosspots, but a fair few who aren't. Naturally, I strive for tosspottery in all that I do, but I sometimes fall short and do something useful by accident.
Same applies to most professions. Find one you dislike or who (you have been told) has done something you dislike and tar all with the same brush. Avoids the difficulty of actually having to think.

Murph7355

10,559 posts

143 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
Apache said:
Would I be correct in saying that the lengths exhausted by Hamza's legal team mean that the next terrorist or hate filled scumbucket will just go straight to wherever he came from or wants him?
No. Quite the contrary IMO. Now that the path has been exposed, expect every ne'er-do-well to try to take it.

I agree with breadvan in that people should have the right to a defence. We simply need to tweak that to note how far it will be provided. As I've noted before, allowing ECHR interference is a step too far IMO. Beyond that, one appeal for each side should be all that is needed.

The govt need to implement change quickly to avoid this happening again.

Murph7355

10,559 posts

143 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
Breadvan72 said:
I do not believe that there is an over arching Al Qeda conspiracy against us. I think there are many disparate group of nutters, some more effective and dangerous than others. Hamza might, however, be steered along by cleverer people. He was probably at least shrewd enough to see that playing the system would pish us all off.

Qatada seems a bit cleverer than Hamza. OBL himself was reputedly no slouch, and the guys who did 911 were pretty switched on, in a very bad cause. Contrary to urban myth, they included licensed commercial pilots. The problem for the beardo-nutters is that the best teams in that game can only be deployed once.
I tend to agree with this too - the clever part is that it's an ideology. Doesn't really need leaders in the traditional sense, which makes it all the harder to fight and undermine. This is something the US and UK govts fail to grasp when they engage traditional military approaches. The only way to kill it is from within - families, friends and associates of the extremists need to educate and if necessary expose.

I'd disagree with them only being able to engage their best exponents once (though appreciate this was being humorous smile). I am fairly certain that the next attacks won't be quite so suicidal (in the same vein anyway). Bringing our system to its knees does not need one to die IMO. Technology advances are our biggest strength and weakness. Imagine the chaos if a particular flavour of beard were to focus their attention on causing harm...

tubbystu

3,845 posts

147 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
Murph7355 said:
I'd disagree with them only being able to engage their best exponents once (though appreciate this was being humorous smile). I am fairly certain that the next attacks won't be quite so suicidal (in the same vein anyway).
Unfortunately it is all about martyrdom, and thus getting your 240 virgins............

Breadvan72

19,898 posts

50 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
Steady on, you only get 70. Also, according to some scholars, it's a mistranslation, and you get 70 raisins instead.

drivin_me_nuts

16,050 posts

98 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
Breadvan72 said:
Steady on, you only get 70. Also, according to some scholars, it's a mistranslation, and you get 70 raisins instead.
Well then, the American approach of wanting to pass a few but different sort of currents through them, in some circles might be considered to be 'foreplay'.

Breadvan72

19,898 posts

50 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
Arf!

I must say that 70 raisins is pretty tempting. If you wanted me to fly a jet into a tall building, I wouldn't do it for peanuts.

Marf

22,907 posts

128 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
Not even chocolate covered peanuts?

Breadvan72

19,898 posts

50 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
You are Satan AICMFP.



PS: did you hear about the dyslexic devil worshipper who sold his soul to Santa?




Marf

22,907 posts

128 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all

Murph7355

10,559 posts

143 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
Breadvan72 said:
You are Satan AICMFP.



PS: did you hear about the dyslexic devil worshipper who sold his soul to Santa?

Or the dyslexic agnostic insomniac who stayed up all night wondering if there is a dog? smile

(breadvan - I hope for your clients' sake that your legal prowess is better than your joke repertoire biggrin)

Murph7355

10,559 posts

143 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
Breadvan72 said:
Steady on, you only get 70. Also, according to some scholars, it's a mistranslation, and you get 70 raisins instead.
Can you imagine the disappointment when they get to the pearly gates and realise they were had (both on the virgin/raisin front and also ending up at the pearly gates biggrin).

Marf

22,907 posts

128 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all

Breadvan72

19,898 posts

50 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
Murph7355 said:
(breadvan - I hope for your clients' sake that your legal prowess is better than your joke repertoire biggrin)
Well, the Judge always laughs whenever I say anything....

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