Abu Hamza extradition halted .. again

Abu Hamza extradition halted .. again

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Discussion

anonymous-user

53 months

Wednesday 26th September 2012
quotequote all
More Dr Johnson:-


"Sir, a lawyer has no business with the justice or injustice of the cause which he undertakes, unless his client asks his opinion, and then he is bound to give it honestly. The justice or injustice of the cause is to be decided by the judge. Consider, sir; what is the purpose of the courts of justice? It is, that every man may have his cause fairly tried, by men appointed to try causes. A lawyer is not to tell what he knows to be a false deed; but he is not to usurp the province of the jury and of the judge, and determine what shall be the effect of evidence -- what shall be the result of legal argument. As it rarely happens that a man is fit to plead his own cause, lawyers are a class of the community, who, by study and experience, have acquired the art and power of arranging evidence, and of applying to the points of issue what the law has settled. A lawyer is to do for his client all that his client might fairly do for himself, if he could. If, by a superiority of attention, of knowledge, of skill, and a better method of communication, he has the advantage of his adversary, it is an advantage to which he is entitled. There must always be some advantage, on one side or the other; and it is better that advantage should be had by talents, than by chance. If lawyers were to undertake no causes till they were sure they were just, a man might be precluded altogether from a trial of his claim, though, were it judicially examined, it might be a very just claim."

The_Burg

4,845 posts

213 months

Wednesday 26th September 2012
quotequote all
Withdraw police protection.....
I give him 2 hours tops.

Time kebab hand fooked off. Utter scum, not even the Muslims at work believe in him.

Allahu_Akbar! Let Allah decide..... I'm fairly sure which way it will go!


Edited by The_Burg on Wednesday 26th September 22:02

Ozzie Osmond

21,189 posts

245 months

Wednesday 26th September 2012
quotequote all
Breadvan72 said:
A lawyer is to do for his client all that his client might fairly do for himself, if he could.
I dare say that when that was written the client was paying the bill, not the taxpayer. It's the huge amount of public money spent on trials, appeals and enquiries (typically paying the costs of both sides) which has got out of hand. Meanwhile the average man in the street has little or no access to legal recourse because he can't afford the costs and can't get public funding.

Murph7355

37,651 posts

255 months

Wednesday 26th September 2012
quotequote all
Don't lawyers etc have to give up a proportion of their time to do this sort of thing as a condition of entry? Bit like medical consultants??

Anyway...there shouldn't be an option of infinite appeal. Tried once. Appeal once. If you wish to take it further than that, do it on your own tab.

If we do not believe the verdict of two trial's we will not believe the verdict of an infinite number until they give the answer we want.

He should have been instructed to bring his suitcase and Fodor's guide to USA with him to the last appeal, and taken straight to the nearest international airport on having his appeal rejected.

This chap isn't laughing at people wanting a legal system like that in Russia, he's laughing at the legal system we have now.

tom2019

770 posts

194 months

Wednesday 26th September 2012
quotequote all
maybe that tappin guy should of hired his lawyer, or that computer geek that got extradited.

Im thinking they went through the same appeal as hook but the media only took intrest once their flights had been booked.

Does anyone know how long tappin and the other guy appealled for?

Its probably a bit of media hate stirring, I reckon he will go eventually he's just dragging it out

GavinPearson

5,715 posts

250 months

Thursday 27th September 2012
quotequote all
Gargamel said:
Indeed where legal aid capped at say £250,000 for anyone individual case, then it would perhaps focus the minds of all concerned.

I would be happy if a similar system applied to crown cost, as it would also focus there minds.

The legal system, barristers and silks is a closed shop monopoly, they charge whatever they like and everyone has to wear it or give up. Perhaps if more competition was introduced we might start to see some sanity in the costs.
Capping needs to be on the hourly charge, the number of solicitors, the hours per case, the number of appeals - i.e. some level of rationing of resources.

Some might say that this isn't fair, but life isn't fair. There are people who are subject to healthcare rationing by postcode that prevents them living - not a quality of life issue but one of life and death. Lawyers should not be getting wealthier on the backs of ordinary taxpayers.




SplatSpeed

7,490 posts

250 months

Thursday 27th September 2012
quotequote all
kowalski655 said:
SplatSpeed said:


One'sYour Tax's are going on this! We are not amused!
EFA

If the guy has "new" evidence(Oh WHAT a coincidence!) then show it to the yanks to prove your innocence, not us. Hamza's mental health is also said to be getting worse.How is this grounds for appeal? A faked breakdown is always handy for fooling idiot Judges. He was always bat st crazy anyway
News update the Queen pays tax now and has the right to complain like the rest of us

Carry on

HD Adam

5,144 posts

183 months

Thursday 27th September 2012
quotequote all
A genuine question for Breadvan.

Doesn't there become a point in law where it's obvious that somebody is playing the system?

This has gone all the way to Strasbourg and back and now he (or his lawyers) change the argument from his human rights at risk to his mental and physical health.
If this latest challenge fails, then I presume he has the right of appeal which prolongs the process yet again.
Then what? "Oh, he's got a bit of a spot on his arse so he can't sit comfortably on the plane" Appeal time again?

If he wants to stay that bad, can they make him share a cell with this man?



Should help things along biggrin

Smiler.

11,752 posts

229 months

Thursday 27th September 2012
quotequote all
Breadvan72 said:
More Dr Johnson:-


"Sir, a lawyer has no business with the justice or injustice of the cause which he undertakes, unless his client asks his opinion, and then he is bound to give it honestly. The justice or injustice of the cause is to be decided by the judge. Consider, sir; what is the purpose of the courts of justice? It is, that every man may have his cause fairly tried, by men appointed to try causes. A lawyer is not to tell what he knows to be a false deed; but he is not to usurp the province of the jury and of the judge, and determine what shall be the effect of evidence -- what shall be the result of legal argument. As it rarely happens that a man is fit to plead his own cause, lawyers are a class of the community, who, by study and experience, have acquired the art and power of arranging evidence, and of applying to the points of issue what the law has settled. A lawyer is to do for his client all that his client might fairly do for himself, if he could. If, by a superiority of attention, of knowledge, of skill, and a better method of communication, he has the advantage of his adversary, it is an advantage to which he is entitled. There must always be some advantage, on one side or the other; and it is better that advantage should be had by talents, than by chance. If lawyers were to undertake no causes till they were sure they were just, a man might be precluded altogether from a trial of his claim, though, were it judicially examined, it might be a very just claim."
Which is probably why many consider the legal industry to be populated by the pontificating elite.

An industry in which the common man (or woman) has to play by the arcane rules seemingly invented & embellished for the purpose of ensuring that the industry merry-go-round is in a perpetual state of money-generating motion.

I give you Fuller-Carp smile



Digga

40,207 posts

282 months

Thursday 27th September 2012
quotequote all
Breadvan72 said:
Hamza would laugh at those of you who clamour for legal systems akin to those he would have in his dream State.
You are correct, although I still wonder if it would have all been a lot better if he'd simply been quietly 'neutralised' Tinker, Taylor, Soldier, Spy style. Cheaper too.

anonymous-user

53 months

Thursday 27th September 2012
quotequote all
Hamza is undoubtedly playing the system, and some lawyers, possibly through misguided zeal, assist him in this, but, as I said above, it's part of his guerilla campaign against our way of life. He will lose, and we shouldn't give up on our system just because it is sometimes abused.

I reckon that this application will face an uphill struggle, but let's see what happens next week. There is no automatic right of appeal if the challenge fails. He will need judicial permission to appeal.

Some lawyers do well from legal aid, but most lawyers working on legal aid rates (which are already capped) do not make much money. Legal aid lawyers are not always the best lawyers, partly because the pay is not very good, especially by the standard of graduate professional pay. I have been doing a (pro bono) case which involves a firm of immigration lawyers who turnover 200,000 gross a year, and out of that pay all expenses including the wages for four staff and three partners. I was amazed that they could carry on at all.

In criminal cases, almost everyone gets legal aid, because the cost of means testing would outweigh the saving. Legal aid is almost unavailable in many civil cases. This is government policy, and not the fault of lawyers, who pointed out that cutting legal aid would harm the average litigant, but the government wanted cuts




Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 27th September 09:05

GavinPearson

5,715 posts

250 months

Thursday 27th September 2012
quotequote all
Breadvan72 said:
We shouldn't give up on our system just because it is sometimes abused.
Serious question: what do each of the EU member states provide in terms of legal aid and how much do lawyers earn from it by state please?

princeperch

7,911 posts

246 months

Thursday 27th September 2012
quotequote all
Breadvan72 said:
Hamza is undoubtedly playing the system, and some lawyers, possibly through misguided zeal, assist him in this, but, as I said above, it's part of his guerilla campaign against our way of life. He will lose, and we shouldn't give up on our system just because it is sometimes abused.

I reckon that this application will face an uphill struggle, but let's see what happens next week. There is no automatic right of appeal if the challenge fails. He will need judicial permission to appeal.

Some lawyers do well from legal aid, but most lawyers working on legal aid rates (which are already capped) do not make much money. Legal aid lawyers are not always the best lawyers, partly because the pay is not very good, especially by the standard of graduate professional pay. I have been doing a (pro bono) case which involves a firm of immigration lawyers who turnover 200,000 gross a year, and out of that pay all expenses including the wages for four staff and three partners. I was amazed that they could carry on at all.

In criminal cases, almost everyone gets legal aid, because the cost of means testing would outweigh the saving. Legal aid is almost unavailable in many civil cases. This is government policy, and not the fault of lawyers, who pointed out that cutting legal aid would harm the average litigant, but the government wanted cuts




Edited by Breadvan72 on Thursday 27th September 09:05
you on the A Panel? I might have instructed you previously...

anonymous-user

53 months

Thursday 27th September 2012
quotequote all
I was on the A panel from 2000 to 2012. I am wondering whether or not to apply again.

I have no info on legal aid or average lawyer earnings in other EU states. My experience is that UK lawyers are generally better than European ones. Our system is faster and more intellectually rigorous than European systems. It is far from perfect, but compares well to others.

joe_90

4,206 posts

230 months

Thursday 27th September 2012
quotequote all

Digga

40,207 posts

282 months

Thursday 27th September 2012
quotequote all
joe_90 said:
Genuinely rofl

HRL

3,330 posts

218 months

Thursday 27th September 2012
quotequote all
Where can I buy one?

joe_90

4,206 posts

230 months

Thursday 27th September 2012
quotequote all
HRL said:
Where can I buy one?
http://www.kith-kin.co.uk/shop/abu-hanger/

HRL

3,330 posts

218 months

Thursday 27th September 2012
quotequote all

Riff Raff

5,087 posts

194 months

Thursday 27th September 2012
quotequote all
SplatSpeed said:
kowalski655 said:
SplatSpeed said:


One'sYour Tax's are going on this! We are not amused!
EFA

If the guy has "new" evidence(Oh WHAT a coincidence!) then show it to the yanks to prove your innocence, not us. Hamza's mental health is also said to be getting worse.How is this grounds for appeal? A faked breakdown is always handy for fooling idiot Judges. He was always bat st crazy anyway
News update the Queen pays tax now and has the right to complain like the rest of us

Carry on
One is not amused by misused apostrophes. Plebs.