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Bedazzled

7,273 posts

104 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
Kermit power said:
What, on the other hand, does the return of the death penalty do?
Well, it would prevent scenes like this for a start. The Lockerbie bomber enjoyed 3 years of freedom after being released, apparently on death's door. I wonder how the families of the 270 people who died at his hands felt about that little celebration?



Punishment is an integral part of the justice system; no need to press those "what about the poor little girl?" emotive buttons with words like revenge.

TheHeretic

73,668 posts

138 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
And you are sure he was guilty?

MocMocaMoc

1,524 posts

24 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
TheHeretic said:
And you are sure he was guilty?
Our Justice system certainly isn't!

John Bunnell

97 posts

29 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
otolith said:
If we are making lists of people we are sure are guilty (and hence can execute), all the convicted murderers who don't make the list need to be immediately released and compensated for their false imprisonment.
Just quoting this again as a voice of sanity in a ridiculous thread.

I'm against the death penalty for the simple reason that I don't believe it's right to take the lives of others. It really doesn't get any more complicated than that for me!

Lakeland9

171 posts

51 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
I'm against it. Judicial murder is as wrong as any other sort of murder.

Oh, and the pro-lobby can wish for it all they like. It's never coming back.

And a good thing too.
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Kermit power

16,680 posts

96 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
Bedazzled said:
Well, it would prevent scenes like this for a start. The Lockerbie bomber enjoyed 3 years of freedom after being released, apparently on death's door. I wonder how the families of the 270 people who died at his hands felt about that little celebration?



Punishment is an integral part of the justice system; no need to press those "what about the poor little girl?" emotive buttons with words like revenge.
Really?? You really want to introduce one of the dodgiest convictions of the 20th century as an argument in favour of the death penalty?

Witnesses claiming the FBI tried to bribe them, others admitting to lying during their testimony, the identification of Al Megrahi by a key witness days after seeing a photo of him in a magazine article about the bombing?

Did Libya carry out the bombing? Without doubt. Was Al Megrahi a scapegoat served up to take the fall for the real bomber? We may never know, but he certainly makes a great poster child for the case against capital punishment.

Engineer1

10,392 posts

92 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
Eric Mc said:
dandarez said:
Eric Mc said:
At least a miscatrriage of justice which resulted in a prison sentence can be corrected.

When the state has killed somebody they shouldn't have - it's a bit late.

I hope AJS' DNA isn't sitting in a petrie dish stored in some sloppilly managed 'privately run' forensic lab.
More accurate?
I don't think that makes any difference at all.
Lowest bidding private lab.

Another issue to the death penalty is the executioner, reading up on a few of them they were not happy well balanced individuals in the end, alcoholism and suicide

Kermit power said:
Digga said:
A good point - which may lead us back to andymadmak's suggestion of proper zero tolerance policing?

The anecdotals on ZT are interseting. Think of the 'sorts' you see every day, parking on double-yellows or disabled spaces, chucking litter out of their car windows, driving without insurance etc. etc. and wonder what else they're up to - a lot of them have the Crimewatch look. Seriously. hehe
I'd quite happily have zero tolerance policing on that sort of thing, but the New York experience doesn't support it. It suggests that ZT got the credit for being launched just at the right time. Crime figures had already improved significantly by the time it was launched, but not by so much that it had already overcome people's concerns about it!
Done right Zero tolerance will see a spike in crime till the message gets across as the point is it's meant to be a short sharp shock where the copper doesn't walk past the minor crime he would have before hand, and the courts don't just ignore it either.

The biggest argument against the death penalty is that for a percentage of murders something will have driven them to it, what happens if you catch the person who murders the adult who abused them as a child? The death penalty may see them executed before the other victims came forward with the mitigation.

People who say it will cost less, what about the inevitable huge payouts that will have to be made when the above comes out and the Murder turns out to have been manslaughter

Steameh

3,152 posts

93 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
Bedazzled said:
Yes I do, in fact I think it's humane in certain circumstances (euthanasia). I think people get carried away with the sanctity of human life. Was it ok to kill the Nazis? Or would you have let them run amok? Is it ok if someone else pulls the trigger for you? Sometimes it's necessary, that's just the world we live in. You can hide them away in prison for all eternity if you wish (out of sight, out of mind) but it's just abdication of responsibility, imho.

What about the guy who ambushed and killed the two young women police officers in Manchester? Do you think he deserves to live out the rest of his life in relative comfort? Personally I think he should be put down and be done with it. Either that or give him a wooden stick to clear landmines in Afghanistan.
I suppose my question was a touch simplistic, so I opened myself up to euthanasia (which I happen to agree with) and war.

I guess the death penalty one where we have to agree to disagree

Jasandjules

50,428 posts

112 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
For some crimes yes. For others no.

zip929

646 posts

60 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
Steameh said:
Bedazzled said:
give him a wooden stick to clear landmines in Afghanistan.
Now that's a good idea.

Hackney

2,871 posts

91 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
Digga said:
TheHeretic said:
No. Our justice system cannot be trusted not to send innocent folks to their deaths. I've posted this before on similar threads. It is the number of death row exonerations in the US.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_exonerated_de...
Surely there are cases though, were the evidence is absolute? I'm thinking of situations where there are multiple witnesses and incontrovertible supporting evidence.
At the time I'm sure they thought the evidence was absolute.

For me, the fact that you can get it wrong means you should never execute.

Ozzie Osmond

15,998 posts

129 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
MocMocaMoc said:
TheHeretic said:
And you are sure he was guilty?
Our Justice system certainly isn't!
What on earth are you talking about?

Al-Megrahi was a convicted terrorist released by Alex Salmond for political reasons. Blame that poisonous little worm, not the justice system.

Kermit power

16,680 posts

96 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
Ozzie Osmond said:
What on earth are you talking about?

Al-Megrahi was a convicted terrorist released by Alex Salmond for political reasons. Blame that poisonous little worm, not the justice system.
I suggest you go and do some research before you start questioning others.

Whether Libya was to blame for the Lockerbie bombing is pretty much a complete, 100% certainty.

Whether Al Megrahi was the Libyan responsible is far, far more debatable.

Ozzie Osmond

15,998 posts

129 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
Kermit power said:
I suggest you go and do some research before you start questioning others.
Then I suggest you read before you type. Unless you are going to set out which part of the "justice system" has indicated any doubt about the conviction.

Bedazzled

7,273 posts

104 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
MocMocaMoc said:
TheHeretic said:
And you are sure he was guilty?
Our Justice system certainly isn't!
He was convicted of murder, his first appeal was thrown out after 5 minutes by the judges ruling unanimously that "none of the grounds of appeal was well-founded" and he abandoned his second appeal in order to obtain release on compassionate grounds, just prior to a UK/Libya trade deal. He then enjoyed a remarkable recovery and according to Wiki the US attempted to re-extradite him but were refused by the rebels. You can choose to believe some nutty conspiracy theory if you wish, but as far as the justice system is concerned he was guilty; and imho the world would be a better place without him for those 3 years, if people only had the courage of their convictions.

Bedazzled

7,273 posts

104 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
Bedazzled said:
What about the guy who ambushed and killed the two young women police officers in Manchester?
Any of the anti-brigade care to comment on this? Is it right for Cregan to spend the next 20 years getting three square meals a day, TV and playstation...? Is that a fitting punishment for someone who murders two female police officers in cold blood? PC Nicola Hughes was 23 years old, bless.

thinfourth2

29,435 posts

87 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
Bedazzled said:
Bedazzled said:
What about the guy who ambushed and killed the two young women police officers in Manchester?
Any of the anti-brigade care to comment on this? Is it right for Cregan to spend the next 20 years getting three square meals a day, TV and playstation...? Is that a fitting punishment for someone who murders two female police officers in cold blood? PC Nicola Hughes was 23 years old, bless.
And then went to the police station and handed himself in as he knew that would wouldn't be killed

If we had the death penalty then why would he not go on a nice little killing fest and then blow his brains out

TheHeretic

73,668 posts

138 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
Bedazzled said:
Bedazzled said:
What about the guy who ambushed and killed the two young women police officers in Manchester?
Any of the anti-brigade care to comment on this? Is it right for Cregan to spend the next 20 years getting three square meals a day, TV and playstation...? Is that a fitting punishment for someone who murders two female police officers in cold blood? PC Nicola Hughes was 23 years old, bless.
He should spend the rest of his life in prison, with fk all at all.

HTH

zygalski

1,850 posts

28 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
Bedazzled said:
Bedazzled said:
What about the guy who ambushed and killed the two young women police officers in Manchester?
Any of the anti-brigade care to comment on this?
Yes.
Prison should be tougher. Life should mean life.
Giving someone a lethal injection after spending 5 years on death row is the easy way out.
Then there's the wrongful conviction issues to consider.

Can't see any good re death penalty, apart from some momentary sense of vengeance for bereaved relatives, friends & those ill-educated council house types who throw bricks through pediatrician's windows.
It also clearly doesn't discourage crime, judging from those countries that use it.
I think the use of guns would also increase, if there was the threat of the death penalty.

Edited by zygalski on Saturday 6th October 12:03

otolith

24,976 posts

87 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
TheHeretic said:
He should spend the rest of his life in prison, with fk all at all.

HTH
^^ this. And if it's too expensive to keep him here, I'm sure the Chinese or the Indians would be happy to offshore the business for us.
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