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TheHeretic

73,668 posts

151 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
zip929 said:
Beyond all doubt.
Where there is doubt, then no.
In the case of the 2 polcie officers shot dead, is there doubt?
I would say not. Let's be rid of that piece of garbage disguising itself as a human.
If there is doubt, they should not be in prison. We are back to the 'why are people in prison if there is doubt' point.

Isaac Hunt

7,548 posts

107 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
There is always a third option.

Send them all to an island from which there is no escape

TwigtheWonderkid

15,173 posts

46 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
zygalski said:
Prison should be tougher. Life should mean life.
I take it you don't work in the prison service. How do you intend controlling prisoners whilst they are in jail, if there is no change of parole or reduced sentence for good behaviour? Or is that just someone else's problem?

Most murderers end up doing 12-15 yrs. A few less, many a lot more. Does anyone really commit a murder unfazed about the prospect of 12 yrs in jail? I just can't see that. I go stir crazy on a long flight!

Big Fluffy One

145 posts

114 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
1. What ratio of miscarriages of justice would you consider acceptable? 1:10? 1:100? 1:1000?
2. Would you still hold the same position if it were your son/daughter/mum/dad dangling at the end of a rope for a crime you knew they didn't commit?

Ozzie Osmond

17,027 posts

142 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
zip929 said:
Let's be rid of that piece of garbage disguising itself as a human.
Why?

What do you think that would achieve?

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tinman0

18,231 posts

136 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
Isaac Hunt said:
There is always a third option.

Send them all to an island from which there is no escape
Yeah, but then they'll just build a dodgy submarine thing out of bits and bobs and power it with a chevy engine...

marcosgt

8,008 posts

72 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
TheHeretic said:
zip929 said:
Beyond all doubt.
Where there is doubt, then no.
In the case of the 2 polcie officers shot dead, is there doubt?
I would say not. Let's be rid of that piece of garbage disguising itself as a human.
If there is doubt, they should not be in prison. We are back to the 'why are people in prison if there is doubt' point.
I don't always agree with TheHeretic, but zip929, your argument is hopeless.

If there's doubt don't kill them? We don't convict if there's doubt!

Deliberately killing someone deserves death? So the judge and executioner must be put to death too!

The jury will decide? HOW guilty someone is? There should be no grey in this, least of all decided by layman manipulated by legal experts.

We all emote that someone should die for doing something terrible, but sometimes they didn't and you can't unskilled someone... One single innocent death is unacceptable, so why risk making it two in any given case?

It doesn't seem that the pro-lobby think this through, they just react, as many of us might in the heat of the moment, but the death penalty would mark us a barbaric state, as it does where it exists in the US...

Not to mention all the problems and extra cost they have actually implementing it ...

I'm all for making prisoners work for their keep in prison, but killing them to save costs is a very slippery slope into oblivion!


M

TheHeretic

73,668 posts

151 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
marcosgt said:
I don't always agree with TheHeretic, but zip929, your argument is hopeless.
M
There is a first time for everything! hehe

Countdown

12,311 posts

92 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
Kermit said:
Did Libya carry out the bombing? Without doubt.
There's plenty of doubt.

A lot of people think it was the Iranians, in revenge for the shooting down of the Iran Air airliner in 1986.

otolith

29,246 posts

100 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
TwigtheWonderkid said:
I take it you don't work in the prison service. How do you intend controlling prisoners whilst they are in jail, if there is no change of parole or reduced sentence for good behaviour?
I'd be perfectly happy if the answer to that were "ice cold water cannon". I realise that may not be legislatively feasible.

TwigtheWonderkid

15,173 posts

46 months

[news] 
Sunday 7th October 2012 quote quote all
otolith said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
I take it you don't work in the prison service. How do you intend controlling prisoners whilst they are in jail, if there is no change of parole or reduced sentence for good behaviour?
I'd be perfectly happy if the answer to that were "ice cold water cannon". I realise that may not be legislatively feasible.
Also tricky to manoeuvre it up stairs and along narrow corridors and into cells. I'm beginning to think a combination of anger and macho posturing is replacing common sense and practicality in this debate.

otolith

29,246 posts

100 months

[news] 
Sunday 7th October 2012 quote quote all
Perhaps. I'm just sure that there are ways of controlling people who know that they will never be released, though I'm aware that there are limits in complying with human rights legislation. My personal view is that I would rather a murderer who deserved it got a full life sentence than was released early, even if that means he gets a lifetime of being made to comply with use of force.

XCP

12,338 posts

124 months

[news] 
Sunday 7th October 2012 quote quote all
TwigtheWonderkid said:
otolith said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
I take it you don't work in the prison service. How do you intend controlling prisoners whilst they are in jail, if there is no change of parole or reduced sentence for good behaviour?
I'd be perfectly happy if the answer to that were "ice cold water cannon". I realise that may not be legislatively feasible.
Also tricky to manoeuvre it up stairs and along narrow corridors and into cells. I'm beginning to think a combination of anger and macho posturing is replacing common sense and practicality in this debate.
Absolutely true.
All the 'use of force' supporters are happy in the knowledge that they are not going to be the ones applying that force or trying to control these maniacs. Complete idiots!

otolith

29,246 posts

100 months

[news] 
Sunday 7th October 2012 quote quote all
XCP said:
Absolutely true.
All the 'use of force' supporters are happy in the knowledge that they are not going to be the ones applying that force or trying to control these maniacs. Complete idiots!
If freeing murderers early is the limit of your imagination for carrot and stick, perhaps you are looking too far afield for complete idiocy.

Quite why you think that a long term reward is the most appropriate incentive for a person so unable to prioritise his long term interests over his impulses that he is serving a life sentence for murder is beyond me.

drivin_me_nuts

17,071 posts

107 months

[news] 
Sunday 7th October 2012 quote quote all
XCP said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
otolith said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
I take it you don't work in the prison service. How do you intend controlling prisoners whilst they are in jail, if there is no change of parole or reduced sentence for good behaviour?
I'd be perfectly happy if the answer to that were "ice cold water cannon". I realise that may not be legislatively feasible.
Also tricky to manoeuvre it up stairs and along narrow corridors and into cells. I'm beginning to think a combination of anger and macho posturing is replacing common sense and practicality in this debate.
Absolutely true.
All the 'use of force' supporters are happy in the knowledge that they are not going to be the ones applying that force or trying to control these maniacs. Complete idiots!
I do wonder how many of those who would be happy to see the death penalty enforced would be so willing to do it if they were the ones who had to take part in the execution. Of course some would take pleasure in it... but how many would actually be the one to push the plunger, flick the switch or drop the hatch.

When it's 'someone else' doing it, it's easy. When it's 'I' or 'you', then I suspect it's a rather less appealing exercise in the purging of humanity. Too many people reside in prison innocent and one single person executed by the state who is later found innocent is one death too many. At the moment there are far too many injustices, too many cases where the once 'guilty' are later proven innocent. We become collectively responsible for their deaths if they had been executed. I for one do not want that on my conscience. I sincerely hope that it never ever returns.

TheHeretic

73,668 posts

151 months

[news] 
Sunday 7th October 2012 quote quote all
otolith said:
If freeing murderers early is the limit of your imagination for carrot and stick, perhaps you are looking too far afield for complete idiocy.

Quite why you think that a long term reward is the most appropriate incentive for a person so unable to prioritise his long term interests over his impulses that he is serving a life sentence for murder is beyond me.
You realise that 'Death', or 'release early' are not the only 2 courses of action available?

otolith

29,246 posts

100 months

[news] 
Sunday 7th October 2012 quote quote all
TheHeretic said:
You realise that 'Death', or 'release early' are not the only 2 courses of action available?
Can you actually read?

I am against the death penalty.

I believe that for those offenders the pro-death advocates hold up as particularly deserving of execution, a whole life tariff is appropriate.

I believe that the argument that whole life tariffs are impractical because the promise of early release is the only way of controlling prisoners is short-sighted.

Bedazzled

9,799 posts

117 months

[news] 
Sunday 7th October 2012 quote quote all
Big Fluffy One said:
1. What ratio of miscarriages of justice would you consider acceptable? 1:10? 1:100? 1:1000?
2. Would you still hold the same position if it were your son/daughter/mum/dad dangling at the end of a rope for a crime you knew they didn't commit?
I think the first of these is an interesting question. I would expect for the vast majority of people it would be absolute zero tolerance, anything other than that is a very hard sell. The death penalty would never be re-introduced in realty because I don't think that is achievable, unless its use was extremely limited. My personal tolerance is higher, as per previous posts, and I can think of two prime candidates for death row UK just from the news over the last two weeks.

I can't see the point in locking someone in a metal box for the rest of their lives and looking the other way, just because you don't have the moral courage to put them out of our misery. I'm talking about people who will never be released into society, or shouldn't be. I can understand people objecting out of principle (presumably due to their religion? I see no other valid reason) but in my opinion their life has no meaning whatsoever, they are literally just a waste of oxygen.

I can't get my head around why people think it is ok for our government and intelligence services to order the death of people in some far off country, on our behalf, but when we are faced with the decision it suddenly becomes unpalatable and everyone starts chanting "thou shalt not kill" while strumming on a guitar with a lilly in their hair. Apparently it's perfectly ok to send in the troops to assassinate Osama bin Laden in a fire fight and dump his body overboard, but it's not ok to execute a cop killer, child murderer or terrorist, after months of due diligence in a court of law...?

The son/daughter/mum/dad scenario above always gets raised by the anti's, and I think it's important to point out in that situation you must abdicate from any decision because you are emotionally compromised. To quote a simple example, it's like in Air Force One when the president's daughter is under threat and he immediately agrees to negotiate with terrorists. You can't set policy on that basis, you have to look at the bigger picture.

TheHeretic

73,668 posts

151 months

[news] 
Sunday 7th October 2012 quote quote all
otolith said:
Can you actually read?

I am against the death penalty.

I believe that for those offenders the pro-death advocates hold up as particularly deserving of execution, a whole life tariff is appropriate.

I believe that the argument that whole life tariffs are impractical because the promise of early release is the only way of controlling prisoners is short-sighted.
Yeah, I k ow you are. I was simply saying that the pro death bunch seem to think that it is either kill them, or let them out. There are so many more options before getting to executions.

otolith

29,246 posts

100 months

[news] 
Sunday 7th October 2012 quote quote all
TheHeretic said:
Yeah, I k ow you are. I was simply saying that the pro death bunch seem to think that it is either kill them, or let them out. There are so many more options before getting to executions.
Agreed.
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