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zip929

657 posts

63 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
TheHeretic said:
zip929 said:
Where do you sit on this? I believe if you conscsioulsy take a life than you should forfeit your life.
That is all very well, assuming you have the right person.
I would agree, it must be beyond all doubt.
Who decides this? It must be a jury.

Let's face it the current system does not seem to deter many from their crimes.

If I was a relative of a victim of murder I would not be happy that the person who killed my relative could be out walking about in 15 years. Why do they deserve a second chance? What about my desceased realtive? Do they get a second chnance, because they happened to meet some asshole at the wrong time? There is far too much emaphasis placed on the rights of the perpetrator rather than the victim.
Makes me sick. You kill someone you lose your rights, what about the rights of the person you killed?
This pc soceiety gets on my tits!

TheHeretic

73,668 posts

141 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
zip929 said:
So if your relatives were the victims of a heinous crime you would maintain that you give the perpratators a second chance? I doubt it?
Always ok to be pc when it does not affetct you or your immediate family.
Objective/Subjective. Justice should not be subjective.

Oakey

16,647 posts

102 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
zip929 said:
I would agree, it must be beyond all doubt.
Who decides this? It must be a jury.

Let's face it the current system does not seem to deter many from their crimes.

If I was a relative of a victim of murder I would not be happy that the person who killed my relative could be out walking about in 15 years. Why do they deserve a second chance? What about my desceased realtive? Do they get a second chnance, because they happened to meet some asshole at the wrong time? There is far too much emaphasis placed on the rights of the perpetrator rather than the victim.
Makes me sick. You kill someone you lose your rights, what about the rights of the person you killed?
This pc soceiety gets on my tits!
Like Colin Stagg yeah? Or are you just going to ignore that inconvenience?

zip929

657 posts

63 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
Oakey said:
zip929 said:
I would agree, it must be beyond all doubt.
Who decides this? It must be a jury.

Let's face it the current system does not seem to deter many from their crimes.

If I was a relative of a victim of murder I would not be happy that the person who killed my relative could be out walking about in 15 years. Why do they deserve a second chance? What about my desceased realtive? Do they get a second chnance, because they happened to meet some asshole at the wrong time? There is far too much emaphasis placed on the rights of the perpetrator rather than the victim.
Makes me sick. You kill someone you lose your rights, what about the rights of the person you killed?
This pc soceiety gets on my tits!
Like Colin Stagg yeah? Or are you just going to ignore that inconvenience?
Beyond all doubt.
Where there is doubt, then no.
In the case of the 2 polcie officers shot dead, is there doubt?
I would say not. Let's be rid of that piece of garbage disguising itself as a human.

TheHeretic

73,668 posts

141 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
zip929 said:
Beyond all doubt.
Where there is doubt, then no.
In the case of the 2 polcie officers shot dead, is there doubt?
I would say not. Let's be rid of that piece of garbage disguising itself as a human.
If there is doubt, they should not be in prison. We are back to the 'why are people in prison if there is doubt' point.
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Isaac Hunt

7,197 posts

97 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
There is always a third option.

Send them all to an island from which there is no escape

TwigtheWonderkid

12,412 posts

36 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
zygalski said:
Prison should be tougher. Life should mean life.
I take it you don't work in the prison service. How do you intend controlling prisoners whilst they are in jail, if there is no change of parole or reduced sentence for good behaviour? Or is that just someone else's problem?

Most murderers end up doing 12-15 yrs. A few less, many a lot more. Does anyone really commit a murder unfazed about the prospect of 12 yrs in jail? I just can't see that. I go stir crazy on a long flight!

Big Fluffy One

144 posts

104 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
1. What ratio of miscarriages of justice would you consider acceptable? 1:10? 1:100? 1:1000?
2. Would you still hold the same position if it were your son/daughter/mum/dad dangling at the end of a rope for a crime you knew they didn't commit?

Ozzie Osmond

16,221 posts

132 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
zip929 said:
Let's be rid of that piece of garbage disguising itself as a human.
Why?

What do you think that would achieve?

tinman0

18,231 posts

126 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
Isaac Hunt said:
There is always a third option.

Send them all to an island from which there is no escape
Yeah, but then they'll just build a dodgy submarine thing out of bits and bobs and power it with a chevy engine...

marcosgt

7,584 posts

62 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
TheHeretic said:
zip929 said:
Beyond all doubt.
Where there is doubt, then no.
In the case of the 2 polcie officers shot dead, is there doubt?
I would say not. Let's be rid of that piece of garbage disguising itself as a human.
If there is doubt, they should not be in prison. We are back to the 'why are people in prison if there is doubt' point.
I don't always agree with TheHeretic, but zip929, your argument is hopeless.

If there's doubt don't kill them? We don't convict if there's doubt!

Deliberately killing someone deserves death? So the judge and executioner must be put to death too!

The jury will decide? HOW guilty someone is? There should be no grey in this, least of all decided by layman manipulated by legal experts.

We all emote that someone should die for doing something terrible, but sometimes they didn't and you can't unskilled someone... One single innocent death is unacceptable, so why risk making it two in any given case?

It doesn't seem that the pro-lobby think this through, they just react, as many of us might in the heat of the moment, but the death penalty would mark us a barbaric state, as it does where it exists in the US...

Not to mention all the problems and extra cost they have actually implementing it ...

I'm all for making prisoners work for their keep in prison, but killing them to save costs is a very slippery slope into oblivion!


M

TheHeretic

73,668 posts

141 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
marcosgt said:
I don't always agree with TheHeretic, but zip929, your argument is hopeless.
M
There is a first time for everything! hehe

Countdown

10,328 posts

82 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
Kermit said:
Did Libya carry out the bombing? Without doubt.
There's plenty of doubt.

A lot of people think it was the Iranians, in revenge for the shooting down of the Iran Air airliner in 1986.

otolith

26,128 posts

90 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
TwigtheWonderkid said:
I take it you don't work in the prison service. How do you intend controlling prisoners whilst they are in jail, if there is no change of parole or reduced sentence for good behaviour?
I'd be perfectly happy if the answer to that were "ice cold water cannon". I realise that may not be legislatively feasible.

TwigtheWonderkid

12,412 posts

36 months

[news] 
Sunday 7th October 2012 quote quote all
otolith said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
I take it you don't work in the prison service. How do you intend controlling prisoners whilst they are in jail, if there is no change of parole or reduced sentence for good behaviour?
I'd be perfectly happy if the answer to that were "ice cold water cannon". I realise that may not be legislatively feasible.
Also tricky to manoeuvre it up stairs and along narrow corridors and into cells. I'm beginning to think a combination of anger and macho posturing is replacing common sense and practicality in this debate.

otolith

26,128 posts

90 months

[news] 
Sunday 7th October 2012 quote quote all
Perhaps. I'm just sure that there are ways of controlling people who know that they will never be released, though I'm aware that there are limits in complying with human rights legislation. My personal view is that I would rather a murderer who deserved it got a full life sentence than was released early, even if that means he gets a lifetime of being made to comply with use of force.

XCP

12,230 posts

114 months

[news] 
Sunday 7th October 2012 quote quote all
TwigtheWonderkid said:
otolith said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
I take it you don't work in the prison service. How do you intend controlling prisoners whilst they are in jail, if there is no change of parole or reduced sentence for good behaviour?
I'd be perfectly happy if the answer to that were "ice cold water cannon". I realise that may not be legislatively feasible.
Also tricky to manoeuvre it up stairs and along narrow corridors and into cells. I'm beginning to think a combination of anger and macho posturing is replacing common sense and practicality in this debate.
Absolutely true.
All the 'use of force' supporters are happy in the knowledge that they are not going to be the ones applying that force or trying to control these maniacs. Complete idiots!

otolith

26,128 posts

90 months

[news] 
Sunday 7th October 2012 quote quote all
XCP said:
Absolutely true.
All the 'use of force' supporters are happy in the knowledge that they are not going to be the ones applying that force or trying to control these maniacs. Complete idiots!
If freeing murderers early is the limit of your imagination for carrot and stick, perhaps you are looking too far afield for complete idiocy.

Quite why you think that a long term reward is the most appropriate incentive for a person so unable to prioritise his long term interests over his impulses that he is serving a life sentence for murder is beyond me.

drivin_me_nuts

16,005 posts

97 months

[news] 
Sunday 7th October 2012 quote quote all
XCP said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
otolith said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
I take it you don't work in the prison service. How do you intend controlling prisoners whilst they are in jail, if there is no change of parole or reduced sentence for good behaviour?
I'd be perfectly happy if the answer to that were "ice cold water cannon". I realise that may not be legislatively feasible.
Also tricky to manoeuvre it up stairs and along narrow corridors and into cells. I'm beginning to think a combination of anger and macho posturing is replacing common sense and practicality in this debate.
Absolutely true.
All the 'use of force' supporters are happy in the knowledge that they are not going to be the ones applying that force or trying to control these maniacs. Complete idiots!
I do wonder how many of those who would be happy to see the death penalty enforced would be so willing to do it if they were the ones who had to take part in the execution. Of course some would take pleasure in it... but how many would actually be the one to push the plunger, flick the switch or drop the hatch.

When it's 'someone else' doing it, it's easy. When it's 'I' or 'you', then I suspect it's a rather less appealing exercise in the purging of humanity. Too many people reside in prison innocent and one single person executed by the state who is later found innocent is one death too many. At the moment there are far too many injustices, too many cases where the once 'guilty' are later proven innocent. We become collectively responsible for their deaths if they had been executed. I for one do not want that on my conscience. I sincerely hope that it never ever returns.

TheHeretic

73,668 posts

141 months

[news] 
Sunday 7th October 2012 quote quote all
otolith said:
If freeing murderers early is the limit of your imagination for carrot and stick, perhaps you are looking too far afield for complete idiocy.

Quite why you think that a long term reward is the most appropriate incentive for a person so unable to prioritise his long term interests over his impulses that he is serving a life sentence for murder is beyond me.
You realise that 'Death', or 'release early' are not the only 2 courses of action available?
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