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tonker

47,219 posts

135 months

[news] 
Thursday 4th October 2012 quote quote all
Assaulting my wife with their revenue protection goons (wrongly accusing her of all sorts - what they wanted was to intimidate her and goad me (When I got there) into lamping one of them - I am above that)). Lying in their franchise application about increasinmg seating capacity (They haven't, they have just ripped seats out) - apparently it was a typo (my @rse). The trains are now slower on my route than in 1916 and take 40% more than in 2004 (all about not being fined).

Shall I carry on ?


We still have no aircon, no toilets and they engage morons in the car park enforcement (I tried to save them the cost of a machine repair (someone had siliconed the slot so I didn't put coins in and left a note on the machine and called them up to confirm - they still ticketed me and gave me the threats of court action).

I have a good idea how railways work and appreciate that they are difficult to get to work - but the Stagecoach approach to its customers is a disgrace as a service ..... we are overcommoditised and they really don't give a feck because it's a captive market....

AV12

4,199 posts

95 months

[news] 
Thursday 4th October 2012 quote quote all
stinkysteve said:
miniman said:
Currently there's a profit margin the companies that own the trains, the banks that finance the leasing of the trains,
These two are the same thing.

The owners are predominantly Banks who lease them to the tocs.

However, the rest of your post regarding profit (not for NR by the way as has been said) is true.

Public transport is a public service, thus should not generate profits but should be state run.

And as for the other poster's suggestions on paving the railways and using coaches.... laugh

I suppose you know of a someone that manufacturers 140mph buses? Get real.

Pneumatic tyres on concrete V's steel on steel - Guess which loses more energy due to friction. And how do you compensate for those losses? Yep, more fuel.

Rail is the most fuel efficient motorised mode of transport on earth.
Agreed. The issue is our infrastructure is antiquated and the lack of investment in some areas means only a limited speed and frequency can be run on main lines. Truthfully look at Japan as inspiration to what rail really is. Coaches? Nah.

How about joining coaches up together to form...wait, a train! wink

loafer123

3,330 posts

102 months

[news] 
Thursday 4th October 2012 quote quote all
tonker said:
Assaulting my wife with their revenue protection goons (wrongly accusing her of all sorts - what they wanted was to intimidate her and goad me (When I got there) into lamping one of them - I am above that)). Lying in their franchise application about increasinmg seating capacity (They haven't, they have just ripped seats out) - apparently it was a typo (my @rse). The trains are now slower on my route than in 1916 and take 40% more than in 2004 (all about not being fined).

Shall I carry on ?


We still have no aircon, no toilets and they engage morons in the car park enforcement (I tried to save them the cost of a machine repair (someone had siliconed the slot so I didn't put coins in and left a note on the machine and called them up to confirm - they still ticketed me and gave me the threats of court action).

I have a good idea how railways work and appreciate that they are difficult to get to work - but the Stagecoach approach to its customers is a disgrace as a service ..... we are overcommoditised and they really don't give a feck because it's a captive market....
At least half of your points would be solved by my rolling stock point.

In term of customer service, shorter franchises would force them to sharpen up.

How did she manage to get done over by their revenue nazis?

tonker

47,219 posts

135 months

[news] 
Thursday 4th October 2012 quote quote all
the main line problem is more that the faster trains (new ones) have to run on the same tracks as slower ones and stoppers - so your're limited by how fast you catch up the slower passenger, or freight train. Hence HS2. To allow more freight on the WCML..... as the fast passengers go up HS2.

I have the rents booked on the Swanage Belle next week - so if you like your spam cans and your Britannias, it's Oliver Cromwell and Tangmere (presumably with a 37 tacked on the back)..... they should hold us [self-]important commuters up on Thursday

RichB

30,976 posts

171 months

[news] 
Thursday 4th October 2012 quote quote all
Yertis said:
..<cliP> .The tragedy of the railways is the nature of their privatisation, rather than the privatisation itself. The railway is a complete system, from track bed to ticket office, and destroying that structure was one of the biggest governmental cock-ups of recent memory (Conservative government).

I strongly suspect that anyone advocating a return to nationalisation has never had much day to day experience of BR.
Totally agree with that! p.s.not read the rest of the thread but to the "tarmac it over brigade" what would yo do with the tons of freight transported by rail?
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tonker

47,219 posts

135 months

[news] 
Thursday 4th October 2012 quote quote all
loafer123 said:
At least half of your points would be solved by my rolling stock point.

In term of customer service, shorter franchises would force them to sharpen up.

How did she manage to get done over by their revenue nazis?
She technically broke the rules by having bought a ticket to a station 10 miles further out on a different route. But because of the delays at WAT to her service (usual Effups), got on the first one out (To Esher - she was breastfeeding and it was tea-time for a 1 year old. So I went to Esher to get her. The revenue goons stopped her and failed to offer her a zero penalty notice or the opportunity to pay just the differ (misrepresenting it) and demanded personal details. I got there and she was effectively cornered against the railings by 40 stone of goons, with them jabbing away in her face being threatening with raised voices (they were clearly enjoying intimidating a woman). They attemtped to prevent me from going on the platform to deal with the matter (that was dealt with rather swiftly, put it that way - I reasonably asked them to say which law they were enforcing - as they claimed. They were unable to answer. I asked them why they were entitled to our name and address. They were unable to answer other than to hand me a leaflet that, within 20 seconds, I had pointed out three legal inaccuracies in and I am also aware that SWT have been in court for inaccurate and misleading information in these also. I asked for a copy of the conditions of carriage so that they could identify the rules they were using the threat of physical force to maintain. They refused to do so. I then invited them to call BTP - they refused (all this time there is a 1 year old in meltdown and a wife in tears). I told them that, if they could not tell me why they were entitled to our details and that they had so far committed a number of criminal offences, then my wife, one year old and I would be leaving the station. One of them physically blocked the barriers. He had to be told in no uncertain terms to 'move' or he would be 'moved'. And even then he baulked my wife as she walked past (carrying a 1 year old) - he didn't have the balls to do it to me - the fckuing wimp.

I then returned home and called BTP and reported them for assault and two separate breaches of the Administration of Justice Act 1970. If they even try to bring any action against my wife, they WILL regret it.

Whilst she was technically in the wrong, she had, in the moral world, bought a more expensive ticket, the reason for what we had done was a service failure and in another environment, anyone who spoke to my wife like that would not be standing (CCTV...). Which is what they want - they were desperate for me to lamp the lot of them, like the people who failed at being traffic wardens - which is a shame, because I know that they often have a tough job in dealing with proper fare evaders, but you can see why they get assaulted when they treat people like they treated my wife and tried to wind the pair of us up - and if you want to enforce the law and behave like a policeman as well as demand money, you had better damned well know why you are doing it.... SWT's morons don't.

Edited by tonker on Thursday 4th October 22:03


Edited by tonker on Thursday 4th October 22:06

AV12

4,199 posts

95 months

[news] 
Thursday 4th October 2012 quote quote all
tonker said:
loafer123 said:
At least half of your points would be solved by my rolling stock point.

In term of customer service, shorter franchises would force them to sharpen up.

How did she manage to get done over by their revenue nazis?
She technically broke the rules by having bought a ticket to a station 10 miles further out on a different route. But because of the delays at WAT to her service (usual Effups), got on the first one out (To Esher - she was breastfeeding and it was tea-time for a 1 year old. So I went to Esher to get her. The revenue goons stopped her and failed to offer her a zero penalty notice or the opportunity to pay just the differ (misrepresenting it) and demanded personal details. I got there and she was effectively cornered against the railings by 40 stone of goons, with them jabbing away in her face being threatening with raised voices (they were clearly enjoying intimidating a woman). They attemtped to prevent me from going on the platform to deal with the matter (that was dealt with rather swiftly, put it that way - I reasonably asked them to say which law they were enforcing - as they claimed. They were unable to answer. I asked them why they were entitled to our name and address. They were unable to answer other than to hand me a leaflet that, within 20 seconds, I had pointed out three legal inaccuracies in and I am also aware that SWT have been in court for inaccurate and misleading information in these also. I asked for a copy of the conditions of carriage so that they could identify the rules they were using the threat of physical force to maintain. They refused to do so. I then invited them to call BTP - they refused (all this time there is a 1 year old in meltdown and a wife in tears).

I then returned home and called BTP and reported them for assault and two separate breaches of the Administration of Justice Act 1970. If they even try to bring any action against my wife, they WILL regret it.

Whilst she was technically in the wrong, she had, in the moral world, bought a more expensive ticket, the reason for what we had done was a service failure and in another environment, anyone who spoke to my wide like that would not be standing (CCTV...).
Thats disgraceful, but typical of money-grabbing revenue.

ninja-lewis

2,291 posts

77 months

[news] 
Thursday 4th October 2012 quote quote all
The only disaster that caused more harm to the railways than the model chosen for privatisation was nationalisation in the first place.

Twincam16 said:
I voted yes, but my solution would be different in spirit as I don't necessarily think it should be nationalised per se.

However, the main problem with the railways in this country stem from the multitude of companies all attempting to run bits of them, badly-co-ordinated with each other, all attempting to do each bit of the job with minimum outlay for maximum profit.

So what I'd propose is that either a government department or a private company could run the railways, but they'd have to run the whole thing. Track, trains, stations, maintenance, safety, infrastructure, freight - the whole lot. That way, everything should be properly co-ordinated, so you wouldn't get someone else's local slow train holding up another company's fast one because another company didn't get the signalling right, or 'engineering works' that drag on for year after year after year because of having to fit in with ongoing budget constraints and other company cock-ups.
EU rules require that the tracks and running of the trains be separate to prevent a vertically integrated operator denying another company from accessing their track. So the split between the TOC side and Network Rail has to remain. You couldn't let Eurostar run HS1, for example, not only because it is also used for local trains and cross-channel freight but Deustche Bahn are planning to offer through services from London to Germany that compete with Eurostar.

Podie said:
I thought Network Rail are non-profit.
Network Rail actually made a £2 billion operating profit last year. Even after financing costs (signicant) and tax, they had a 5% proft margin. What Network Rail is a "not for dividend" company limited by gurantee. It has no shareholders to distribute profits to so they're reinvested back into the network. It also prevents the Government using it as a cashcow and thereby depriving it of investment as happened to successful nationalised industries in the past.

Wills2

8,672 posts

62 months

[news] 
Thursday 4th October 2012 quote quote all

Nationalised railways? People have short memories...

tonker

47,219 posts

135 months

[news] 
Thursday 4th October 2012 quote quote all
Don't get me wrong, technically she had a valid ticket, but not on that route... which was a subtlety they could not appreciate smile, however, you apply common sense, this is a mid 30's woman, with a ticket that is more expensive, with a husband and a baby who is screaming his head off. You understand that, "you know what, this isn't a fare evader". But they didn't - they were complete pricks.

The problem is that they completely alienated the pair of us and they were clearly enjoying what they were doing, until it became clear they were being talked rings round and being made to look stupid. Them resorting physical intimidation and 'baulking' my wife carrying a baby (see added bit I missed out...) was utterly disgraceful. And outside of their uniform and badges, they didn't have the balls to try it with me...., but on a woman.

RichB

30,976 posts

171 months

[news] 
Thursday 4th October 2012 quote quote all
ninja-lewis said:
EU rules require that the tracks and running of the trains be separate to prevent a vertically integrated operator denying another company from accessing their track.
Didn't know that but it explains a lot.

blueg33

13,819 posts

111 months

[news] 
Thursday 4th October 2012 quote quote all
tonker said:
Don't get me wrong, technically she had a valid ticket, but not on that route... which was a subtlety they could not appreciate smile, however, you apply common sense, this is a mid 30's woman, with a ticket that is more expensive, with a husband and a baby who is screaming his head off. You understand that, "you know what, this isn't a fare evader". But they didn't - they were complete pricks.

The problem is that they completely alienated the pair of us and they were clearly enjoying what they were doing, until it became clear they were being talked rings round and being made to look stupid. Them resorting physical intimidation and 'baulking' my wife carrying a baby (see added bit I missed out...) was utterly disgraceful. And outside of their uniform and badges, they didn't have the balls to try it with me...., but on a woman.
I believe those muppets were at cheltenham station this morning. I may have advised them to activate their shared brain cell and go forth and multiply!

No way they should have treated your wife the way they did.

hornet

5,983 posts

137 months

[news] 
Thursday 4th October 2012 quote quote all
AV12 said:
It is very good and provides a orbital service which has been much needed by London. Agree on the Tottenham
Hale, but I think the now Southeastern "Metro" regions, the London - Dartford via Greenwich/Sidcup etc. The lack of a tube network into these highly populated (and growing hugely)areas would be ideal - could possibly link to the old East London line from the main lines into London Bridge. May sound far-fetched to some, but youll be surprised what will be done when the powers that be want it to. They are now going to introduce the LO into Clapham Junction from Dalston etc very soon, from which then it will run "full circle" around inner suburban London.

Link: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/projectsandschemes...
The thing that's impressed me has been the re-use of old paths. I'm a bit nerd when it comes to long disused routes and links - stuff like the Connaught Tunnel and the old NLL branch that Crossrail is taking over. Just fascinates me that this stuff can lay disused for so long in such a major city with so much demand for transport.

AV12

4,199 posts

95 months

[news] 
Thursday 4th October 2012 quote quote all
There's a fair amount of it East and South London, too, owing to it's industrial past.

CooperD

1,491 posts

64 months

[news] 
Thursday 4th October 2012 quote quote all
I do a lot of travelling on the French Railways. If the UK could have a service as good as their's I would support nationalisation. I've only once had a delayed train, because of a suicide apparently, but that was only about 10 minutes late. I have to admit that the service in East Anglia has improved a bit recently with Greater Anglia taking over the franchise.

Yertis

12,403 posts

153 months

[news] 
Thursday 4th October 2012 quote quote all
RichB said:
ninja-lewis said:
EU rules require that the tracks and running of the trains be separate to prevent a vertically integrated operator denying another company from accessing their track.
Didn't know that but it explains a lot.
Me neither - yet another reason for me to loathe the EU.

martin84

5,366 posts

40 months

[news] 
Thursday 4th October 2012 quote quote all
It seems to me that irrespective of whether the railways are privatised or nationalised, they still seem to cost the taxpayer lots of money and cost the rail users more than it should.

johnfm

10,985 posts

137 months

[news] 
Friday 5th October 2012 quote quote all
Putting aside ownership for a moment, I heard an interesting idea the other day about the railways - the lines are mostly empty.

A train from A to B every 20 minutes or whatever means that the track is virtually 'empty'.

He was suggesting many more, smaller 'trains' running every few minutes - effectively 'filling' the track with little 10 person 'mini trains'.

I suppose it would then turn the railways into a form of automated motorway.

It will never happen, but the concept was interesting.

tonker

47,219 posts

135 months

[news] 
Friday 5th October 2012 quote quote all
What happens when a fast train (or a slower one) needs to come through ?

Bibbs

2,841 posts

97 months

[news] 
Friday 5th October 2012 quote quote all
Where I live the transport system is basically nationalised (it's actually different companies running the services in different areas, but all under the one name).

Train/bus/ferry all the same company. You buy a ticket on one, and it works on the others, similar to the zone system in London.

My travel is the equivalent of about 3 quid a day. Trains are every 15/20 mins. The are clean, air conditioned and eletric. The new busses are run on LPG so are less polluting too.

On Friday and Saturday the late trains (2:30am, 4am) are free.
The car parks at each station are free.
The bus service once in the city is free.
Sporting events have free travel included in the tickets, and the venues are close to transport.

It's subsidised through car tax and carpark tax.

I like it.
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