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Art0ir

6,313 posts

50 months

[news] 
Sunday 7th October 2012 quote quote all
That political compass test surprised me



I always thought I was slightly right leaning, although I guess it's not the most comprehensive of tests.

eharding said:
So...tell me what you see...



1) A Butterfly?

2) Two Brussels Eurocrats plotting to destroy the UK?

3) Two eastern-European plumbers fixing a blocked khazi for 20% of the fee one of our own home-bred plumbers would charge?
A gentleman with an upturned shirt collar, jacket and a tiny red bow tie along with some very red ears.

AJS-

11,448 posts

116 months

[news] 
Sunday 7th October 2012 quote quote all
cardigankid said:
Very simple.

Ia lot of what UKIP says makes sense.

If however a significant number of current Tories vote UKIP they will put the bd Labour back in, Miligit, Ballsup, Fat Diane and they will finish the country for good.
Increasingly this is the Tory's only real argument. It's pathetic

Breadvan72

16,147 posts

43 months

[news] 
Sunday 7th October 2012 quote quote all
I query, however, whether UKIP can be much more than a repository for protest votes. A protest vote is by its nature negative. I have only protest voted once, in 2005 when fed up with Blair. UKIP's stronger showing in Euroelections than in national elections seems to reflect both Euroscepticism, and a realisation that the Europarliament has little real power (most decisions being made by the Commission and Council).

The electorates in Europe do appear to cluster in the centre ground. The US appears to have a more starkly polarised electorate, making every Presidential election very close, but in Europe centre right and centre right parties engage in a tug of war over a large group of voters who do not appear driven by strong ideologies of right or left.

powerstroke

2,331 posts

40 months

[news] 
Sunday 7th October 2012 quote quote all
Jasandjules said:
chris watton said:
I have got to the point where I don't really care - and that's coming from a 'natural' Tory voter (if there is such a thing).

Perhaps Labour need to get in again to finish what they started. The next time, maybe the general public will put more though into their voting habits, instead of acting like complete automatons.

Right now, I see little to no difference between the two main parties – I would be a turkey voting for Christmas, so UKIP is my only viable alternative.
These are almost exactly my thoughts.

I think a severe kicking in the polls (ideally with plenty of votes going to UKIP) to show the Tories that they need to change. THEN we might finally get a Tory party with decent policies and we can get this country turned around and back on its feet...
Sadly it seems the direction of travel is more to the left and my only conclusion is the torys are trying to occupy the space left by tony blair's new labour and labour are going back to old labour ?? or is it having the libtards in the tory mix? maybe things will change post CMD and or 2015 ? a ukip tory coilition would seem a very good outcome ??

Edited by powerstroke on Sunday 7th October 07:51

AJS-

11,448 posts

116 months

[news] 
Sunday 7th October 2012 quote quote all
That would seem to damn us to an eternity of switching between an increasingly similar Labour and Conservative party at each election based on whoever has the most (or least) appealing leader at the time.

Given this I don't really care which way it goes in any given election and would rather "waste" my vote on someone who has some positive ideas for improvement that I agree with.
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thinfourth2

28,677 posts

84 months

[news] 
Sunday 7th October 2012 quote quote all
Breadvan72 said:
I query, however, whether UKIP can be much more than a repository for protest votes. A protest vote is by its nature negative. .
if red/blue/yellow/tartan labour offer something positive then i'll vote positive

Until then its UKIP


Breadvan72

16,147 posts

43 months

[news] 
Sunday 7th October 2012 quote quote all

Kermit power

16,295 posts

93 months

[news] 
Sunday 7th October 2012 quote quote all
I think the problem with UKIP isn't that they are a single policy party. The problem is that they are a single personality party.

I'm sure there are people on here who could tell me who their fisheries spokesman is, but I reckon to 90% of the electorate, Nigel Farage is UKIP, and UKIP is Nigel Farage.

Farage to my mind is a real Marmite personality. You either love him or view him as a smug, smarmy git, and no party is ever going to succeed from that position.

Also, whilst UKIP may claim to be more than just an anti-Europe protest vote, it's impossible to see Farage himself as anything but.

So long as Farage is leader - or even significantly visible - I think they've hit their glass ceiling. He needs to go, but who on earth would replace him when he is UKIP?

I suspect a few UKIP supporters will be along to tell me how wrong I am, and that there is a broad raft of strong party leaders. Even if that were the case, it's irrelevant. Perception is what matters, and to the general electorate UKIP is the Nigel Farage anti EU party.


AJS-

11,448 posts

116 months

[news] 
Sunday 7th October 2012 quote quote all
Kermit power said:
I think the problem with UKIP isn't that they are a single policy party. The problem is that they are a single personality party.

I'm sure there are people on here who could tell me who their fisheries spokesman is, but I reckon to 90% of the electorate, Nigel Farage is UKIP, and UKIP is Nigel Farage.

Farage to my mind is a real Marmite personality. You either love him or view him as a smug, smarmy git, and no party is ever going to succeed from that position.

Also, whilst UKIP may claim to be more than just an anti-Europe protest vote, it's impossible to see Farage himself as anything but.

So long as Farage is leader - or even significantly visible - I think they've hit their glass ceiling. He needs to go, but who on earth would replace him when he is UKIP?

I suspect a few UKIP supporters will be along to tell me how wrong I am, and that there is a broad raft of strong party leaders. Even if that were the case, it's irrelevant. Perception is what matters, and to the general electorate UKIP is the Nigel Farage anti EU party.
I agree but I think that's a necessary stage for a party in their position. They need a strong, visible leader to get noticed and elected. Grooming a top team takes years. UKIP is a young party and Farage a relatively young man. He could quite possibly remain as leader for another 10 years, which might sound like a recipe for a personality cult, but if they're smart now it could also be a great opportunity to develop capable leaders for the future. I don't know enough about their internal workings to know which way this will go.

Breadvan72

16,147 posts

43 months

[news] 
Sunday 7th October 2012 quote quote all
There is a danger in having a "personality" leader, especially one as Marmitey as Mr Farage. Some might prefer that to blandness, but he can come across as eccentric and/or self promoting. The history of UKIP shows it to be prone to bitter internal conflicts and personality contests. Of course all political parties have these to some degree, but fringe parties tend to have more extreme internal punch ups.

AJS-

11,448 posts

116 months

[news] 
Sunday 7th October 2012 quote quote all
Incidentally regarding strange alliances in the EU Parliament, UKIP are not alone. Cameron disassociated from the EPP as it was a basically full on Federalist Party, but that hadn't stopped them for decades before when no one was paying attention to EU politics.

Labour's allies in the S&D group include the Hungarian Socialist Party, who are basically direct descendents of the pro Soviet dictatorship from the 1959s until the collapse in the late 80s, amongst other barely reformed Marxists.

Of course this partly just reflects the wildly different politics between the various countries of the EU, which is one of the reasons that trying to meld it all into one country is such an ill conceived project that constantly requires lies and omissions to stop people voting to get rid of it altogether.

The European Parliament is a strange alliance for people who believe in open democracy.

London424

4,567 posts

55 months

[news] 
Sunday 7th October 2012 quote quote all
Breadvan72 said:
There is a danger in having a "personality" leader, especially one as Marmitey as Mr Farage. Some might prefer that to blandness, but he can come across as eccentric and/or self promoting. The history of UKIP shows it to be prone to bitter internal conflicts and personality contests. Of course all political parties have these to some degree, but fringe parties tend to have more extreme internal punch ups.
Is there a big difference with Farage/UKIP and Salmond/SNP? Every party has to start somewhere.

thinfourth2

28,677 posts

84 months

[news] 
Sunday 7th October 2012 quote quote all
London424 said:
Is there a big difference with Farage/UKIP and Salmond/SNP? Every party has to start somewhere.
Yeah the SNP believe in the Magic money tree

Also the SNP have been running for decades

Kermit power

16,295 posts

93 months

[news] 
Sunday 7th October 2012 quote quote all
London424 said:
Is there a big difference with Farage/UKIP and Salmond/SNP? Every party has to start somewhere.
Absolutely. I am not (and I suspect from your user name you are not either) part of their electorate, but if you actually lived in Scotland, I'd imagine the SNP must have a far broader profile than UKIP. They've got a majority in the Scottish parliament, so surely they must have a broader profile to do that?

Admittedly I couldn't name anyone else from the SNP hierarchy than Salmond, but then I live hundreds of miles away from Scotland, and UKIP would have me vote for them in a general election.

This really crystallised for me with the last general election when he was in that plane crash. He's the party leader and he's running around flying banners off the back of planes?? Seriously? Since then, I've had visions of UKIP policy committees which involve Nigel with lots of little face masks on sticks jumping from one seat to another debating policies with himself.

The only other person I could mention with a link to UKIP was Kilroy Silk, and he and Farage just seem cut from the same stereotypical estate agent mould.

London424

4,567 posts

55 months

[news] 
Sunday 7th October 2012 quote quote all
thinfourth2 said:
London424 said:
Is there a big difference with Farage/UKIP and Salmond/SNP? Every party has to start somewhere.
Yeah the SNP believe in the Magic money tree

Also the SNP have been running for decades
Sort of what I was alluding to with your second sentence...the SNP have been going for years, UKIP have to start somewhere.

odyssey2200

18,650 posts

89 months

[news] 
Sunday 7th October 2012 quote quote all
Have those who are saying that UKIP are a single policy party, actually read their manifesto?


I suspect not.

Breadvan72

16,147 posts

43 months

[news] 
Sunday 7th October 2012 quote quote all
Naturally, UKIP states policies on a variety of isues, but their voter appeal is, I suggest, based mainly on their fundamental leave the EU stance, with additional votes attracted by protest.

odyssey2200

18,650 posts

89 months

[news] 
Sunday 7th October 2012 quote quote all
Breadvan72 said:
Naturally, UKIP states policies on a variety of isues, but their voter appeal is, I suggest, based mainly on their fundamental leave the EU stance, with additional votes attracted by protest.
at least they have a clearly stated aim.

What do the other parties want to achieve ?

Breadvan72

16,147 posts

43 months

[news] 
Sunday 7th October 2012 quote quote all
Each main party contends that it aims for the UK to be prosperous, peaceful and well governed, but neither is so closely associated with one big idea as a party like UKIP is.

thinfourth2

28,677 posts

84 months

[news] 
Sunday 7th October 2012 quote quote all
Breadvan72 said:
Naturally, UKIP states policies on a variety of isues, but their voter appeal is, I suggest, based mainly on their fundamental leave the EU stance, with additional votes attracted by protest.
Well if the tories ever pull their head out of their own arse and actually ask people like myself why we vote UKIP they might discover what we want to see from a party
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